Skip to content


The Joss Debate

Buffy stuff. Open to everyone now.

The Joss Debate

Postby Justified12 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:54 am

Recently while reading some threads, I started to notice a trend of severe hatred towards Joss Whedon on the kitten board that I'd never come across before.

Although I can relate to why a lot of people are now, and forever will be, annoyed about the completely unspeakable thing he did to our two favourite lesbian witches... I can't use that as justification to despise everything he does and pray that he fails in everything he does in the future. I put this question forward a few times in other places and received some pretty hostile replies. I was just curious because it seems like a conflict of interest.

The question is... Can hating Joss Whedon and loving Willow and Tara (characters that he in fact created) really go hand in hand? Or will simultaneously holding the two beliefs always have an element of hypocrisy to it?

I wanted to hear everyone's opinions on this topic but especially those who severely dislike Joss Whedon. What are your reasons?

(Please don't get annoyed with me if you think I'm naive. Just try to explain politely.)
"Now that I know there's something to know, I can't not know, just because I'm afraid somebody'll know I know, you know?" - Willow
User avatar
Justified12
5. Willowhand
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby DaddyCatALSO » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:29 am

I think this is going to be viewed as off-topic.
Snapshots:http://thekittenboard.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10210 a Love Story
____________________________________________________________
Kim: (breaks off the kissing) I l... (Sue stops her with a hand)
Sue: We don't talk about things like that right after, you know that, no saying those things in The Moment.
Kim: (moves the hand aside) Screw The Moment. I *love* you.
DaddyCatALSO
10. Troll Hammer
 
Posts: 1163
Topics: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:08 pm
Location: Easton PA


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby abarda » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:46 am

I don't hate Joss Whedon. I just don't like the fact that Tara died and after that, Willow started dating JFK.

If it wasn't for Joss, we would never have Willow and Tara and all the other Buffy characters. In my opinion, Joss is a great storyteller, and I can't hate him, only some of the decisions he had towards my favorite characters.
"She's got her ticket, I think she's gonna use it
Think she's going to fly away..."
User avatar
abarda
6. Sassy Eggs
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:37 pm
Location: Brazil


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Nue » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:27 pm

I don´t hate him.. I´m a nice person, I can´t hate anyone XD

I just think he and all Buffy crew made a HUGE mistake...
- Proud Warrant Officer of the Kitten Army - Semper WillTarus!! -

My Heart Draws a Dream
True Colors of Love
A Crazy Little Thing Called Mutation
User avatar
Nue
11. Fish in the Bowl
 
Posts: 1451
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:51 am
Location: United States of Tara o/


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby riotgrrrljaz » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:54 pm

I totally agree with you Justified! What's up with all the hate?....i was gonna put forth a subject like this after getting some mean replies to the thread i started about the Willow one-shot comic. (Which i thought was not off-topic at all because I was bringing news about a character we, the kittenboard, love). I thought people were gonna be excited or at least happy that Willow, one of our beloved characters *looking up at the top kittenboard banner*, got her own comic, which i think is awesome-tastic!

It surprises me that people are major Willow/Tara shippers but hate Joss and discontinue or pretend the Buffyverse doesn't exist after Seeing Red. I disagreed with Joss's decision to kill Tara, but it doesn't make me hate him nor stop following whats currently going on in the Buffyverse right now (season 8)....it just seems to me that some people are hypocritical when it comes to loving two characters that Joss created, yet don't like Joss nor the Buffyverse anymore.
“Being a beautiful, heavy, lesbian witch rocks!” ~Amber Benson~

"Hey, Lezallbefriendsbians!!" =)
User avatar
riotgrrrljaz
5. Willowhand
 
Posts: 291
Topics: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:54 pm
Location: oregon


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Willowtree252 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:34 pm

What you are missing is that this board has a FAQ section and everything you just said is off topic. I don't mean to be rude but this is in fact what we all want its why we are here if we wanted it a different way we would in fact go to another board that supports your views. The fact that we are going strong and have loyal fan base shows success on the highest level. :shy
Dia the spelunker
Never underestimate the powerful love of a good woman
If you were a cave what kind of cave would you be
User avatar
Willowtree252
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
 
Posts: 9808
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: Next to an Angel in Houston Texas


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby riotgrrrljaz » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:03 am

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't give people on the board the right to bash and hate on Joss while at the same time be part of a loyal fan base on two of the characters he created.....that's the part that's very hypocritical and frustrating on kittens (like me) who love this board because of the proud Willow/Tara lovin yet who also still love BtVS and Joss and then read mean things about him and justify it by saying "well he killed Tara and i didn't like it"...I truly believe he didn't know how much of an impact it would have on fans by killing Tara until after he did so, and I believe he regretted that decision. So I forgive him completely...and hey, Joss wanted and tried to bring her back in the finale (because of the outcry of the fans and he wanted to do right), but there was scheduling conflicts with Amber.

I'm just trying to understand (like Justified12) what's the reasons for hating Joss and Buffy (up to a certain point; Seeing Red) and continue to love Willow and Tara? I get people disliked his decision to kill Tara, but I agree with J12 that it doesn't give justification to be hating on the guy and everything he does thereafter.
“Being a beautiful, heavy, lesbian witch rocks!” ~Amber Benson~

"Hey, Lezallbefriendsbians!!" =)
User avatar
riotgrrrljaz
5. Willowhand
 
Posts: 291
Topics: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:54 pm
Location: oregon


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Foomatic » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:01 am

Per the Board's FAQ:

"Most topics can be discussed in one of the forums that we have, but there are a few topics that cannot be discussed anywhere on this board: BtVS, its creator and any other show made by him and or Mutant Enemy are off topic. Specifically: Anything past the last ten or so minutes of 'Seeing Red' is off topic . . . "

I understand your argument, but according to the FAQ, Joss shouldn't be mentioned anywhere on the Board, period, love or hate the guy. Please respect the board guidelines; there are plenty of places where you can discuss this topic, but the Kittenboard is not one of them.

Ditto the Willow one-shot comic, anything after the first ten minutes of "Seeing Red" does not belong here. Again, plenty of places to discuss it elsewhere.

Unfortunately I haven't seen a moderator around for quite some time, so there are a lot of threads and posts that are going unchecked. I'm being a stickler because I care about this place and what it stands for, and respect the rules that have made the board what it is: a place for Willow and Tara/Aly and Amber lovin'. I hope you consider this when making any future posts.
Foo

Kisses and Gay Love
"I like my buttons, curvy." - Willow, Neverland, by Easiersaid
User avatar
Foomatic
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
 
Posts: 2360
Topics: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:56 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby riotgrrrljaz » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:07 am

It seems the only time the FAQ get brought up is after someone then defends "the creator, and BtVS" when they both get hated upon. (which is not supposed to be brought up in the first place). Does hatred of someone get a free pass and the people who question that said hatred get slammed with the rules fair?

I will respect the rules but it just seems unfair when i read mean things about someone (who's not even supposed to be talked about) and those comments aren't getting questioned and i'm just trying to understand why of it all.

I'm not trying to start an argument nor push my opinions down peoples throats, but i will defend someone or something i love especially when there's no good valid reason (that i've seen of yet) for them to be bashed.

Also i truly am sorry to any kitten who got offended when i started the Willow comic thread, I sincerely just wanted to share my excitement about one of my favorite characters getting her own comic book and let others who might not of known about it to know if they too were die hard Willow fans like myself.
“Being a beautiful, heavy, lesbian witch rocks!” ~Amber Benson~

"Hey, Lezallbefriendsbians!!" =)
User avatar
riotgrrrljaz
5. Willowhand
 
Posts: 291
Topics: 1
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:54 pm
Location: oregon


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Justified12 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:38 am

Wow guys. I am really shocked at how mad and defensive everyone got. I really really did not mean to offend.

In fact, I wasn't even aware that all of those things were strictly off limits. I did skim the FAQ when I first joined the board but I am embarassed to admit that I missed the specifics on this. In my defense, I saw many many posts bashing JW in the first place and that was the only reason I brought this up. I was confused. Otherwise I would not have mentioned it at all... And after seeing this outcry, I definitely won't say anything about it in the future. I was by no means trying to rebel against the rules or start a fight.

I'm sorry for being off-topic. I will be very careful before posting anything again. I love this board just the way it is and if everyone agrees that JW and anything he has created since SR is banned, I hope that EVERYONE follows the rules from now on and stays away from the subject - bashing or praising.

Moderators, feel free to delete this thread :P my apologies.
"Now that I know there's something to know, I can't not know, just because I'm afraid somebody'll know I know, you know?" - Willow
User avatar
Justified12
5. Willowhand
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby DaddyCatALSO » Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:09 am

I've never studied reader-response theory, but insofar as a matter of "rights," we have a right to think what we want.

And the o-t- question is kind of specific to the actual Buffyverse that coems after "Xander" "Maybe they're making up." There was a Dollhouse thread here which saw soem activity and was pronounced not o-t- by a mod; not everyone here wants every future project of Mr. Whedon's to flat-out fail.

Insofar as he can allow himself to care about what any given fan thinks (and of course nobody in his position really can) he probably prefers the reaction of being hated to the reaction *I* had; he turned me from an obsessed fan to a casual viewer/reader, a species he has publcily expressed neagtive opinion about.
Snapshots:http://thekittenboard.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10210 a Love Story
____________________________________________________________
Kim: (breaks off the kissing) I l... (Sue stops her with a hand)
Sue: We don't talk about things like that right after, you know that, no saying those things in The Moment.
Kim: (moves the hand aside) Screw The Moment. I *love* you.
DaddyCatALSO
10. Troll Hammer
 
Posts: 1163
Topics: 1
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:08 pm
Location: Easton PA


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Dana5140 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:17 am

Well, I have studeied reader-response theory and follow what Stanley Fish has to say about it. In a nutshell, the basic point is that the reader constructs meaning from the story, and that meaning may not be what meaning the author intended. For example, Moby Dick is the story of a man obsessed with catching a whale, and it was written back in the 18th Century and carries with it the ethos of that time, but we could read this story as, for example, an example of how coroporate structure annhiliates the consumer, just saying. Now, certainly corporate structure did not exist at the time Melville was writing, but we bring to our reading our own values, beliefs, etc. and that can color how we read and interpret the story. Here is another example- did Willow and Tara have sex the night of "New Moon rising" at the end of the episode? You never saw it happen, right? So you construct meaning from what you see at the end, the words Willow says, the tenderness with which she says it, Tara's reaction, etc.

To make a long story short, reader-response sort of suggests that you can end Buffy before Seeing Red occurred, even though the canon of Buffy demonstrates it did. We can't pretend Seeing Red never happened, because it did, but we can construct a story where our tale ends before that happened, and then we can create a community where we set certain rules to follow. If you come here, well, you sort of agree to follow the rules; if you don't want to, then you go where you don't have to. Now, I do not say that to suggest this is not a viable topic. More and more time has passed since what happened, happened- it is now like, what, 9 years and this distance has for many people softened the pain they felt. Not all people, just for some- and this means that topics that previously were really OT might be more in than in the past.

There are a lot of reasons to dislike Joss Whedon. I thought DH sucked horribly, and made a virtue of prostitution- who th ehell were we supposed to root for in that show? Echo? She was never herself. Maybe Sierra, who I thought was a far more interesting character. But Dh was an overreach by Whedon. As is the current comic. More than anything, what he has done with these efforts is helped to extinguish my love of Buffy; I find myself not caring- I had hoped to see tara show up inthe comic, but we were told she would not- this is the one area where Whedon cannot move forward because to do so would be to admit a wrong, and in our current culture no one ever does that. So, the comic exists to put an end to Tara, not to valorize her.

Another way to look at this is in terms of shipping. Willow and Tara are a ship, of course. And shippers can be really invested in their ships- I am here for Willow and Tara, as I am in CSI for the GSR- and over on yourtaxdollarsatwork, if you ever try to discuss Grissom and Lady Heather, you will see comments far more foul and profane than anything you see here in discussing Whedon. Why? Becuase of investment. I invested in Willow and Tara; I ove that relation, it gives me pleasure, and I could hardly even tell you why. But it dodes. And when it ended, it hurt- rally hurt, not metaphorically hurt. It was a STUPID decision, and it carried risk and it hurts Whedon to this day. But this place exists to remember the good from that, not to obsess over the bad- because, boy, I did that.

Just a few comments here.
He hurt my nose!
Dana5140
6. Sassy Eggs
 
Posts: 379
Topics: 6
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Down in the Zero


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Zooeys_Bridge » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:58 am

Might I pose an invitation to continue this on the 'Kisses and Gay Love' group on Facebook? As a KittenBoard extension, we can continue discussion in a context where there are no rules. As much as this topic interests me, I have to agree with Foo that we should follow the rules of the KB which says talking about this here is a no-no. Not that it shouldn't be talked about at all, just that here isn't the best place.

Update: There is now a thread entitled 'The Joss Debate' on 'Kisses and Gay Love'. Go crazy, guys
User avatar
Zooeys_Bridge
10. Troll Hammer
 
Posts: 1198
Topics: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:36 am
Location: somewhere inbetween here and there


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Dana5140 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:20 am

Link?
He hurt my nose!
Dana5140
6. Sassy Eggs
 
Posts: 379
Topics: 6
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Down in the Zero


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Zooeys_Bridge » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:57 am

I don't know why, but the link appears broken when I post it in full and the phpBB code to embed a link isn't working. Copy and paste the whole address into the bar might work better, let me know.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/topi ... opic=13893

If it's totally dead, just enter Kisses and Gay Love into the search bar and the group should come up. The Joss Debate will be in the Discussion section, first thread.
User avatar
Zooeys_Bridge
10. Troll Hammer
 
Posts: 1198
Topics: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:36 am
Location: somewhere inbetween here and there


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Foomatic » Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:29 am

Great idea Rach! Things have been dead over for a while, but I think it's a perfect forum for this discussion!

Just to reiterate, I think a lot of off topic threads on this board are here because of the absence of the moderators. Used to be they'd get locked down within a few hours, but unfortunately that isn't the case anymore.
Foo

Kisses and Gay Love
"I like my buttons, curvy." - Willow, Neverland, by Easiersaid
User avatar
Foomatic
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
 
Posts: 2360
Topics: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 5:56 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Hemiola » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:52 pm

**walks in with head down and shoulders hunched**
Um..."Moby Dick" was written in the 19th century, not the 18th. And scholars have been arguing over its meaning ever since. Just sayin'....
**walks off abashed and nervous**
Hemiola
10. Troll Hammer
 
Posts: 1248
Topics: 8
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:25 pm


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Dana5140 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:33 pm

Right, right, my bad- but the point still stands. :-)

And I meant to use the word "text" in my discussion, but 10 hours of bargaining negotiations have turned what brain I have left to mush.
He hurt my nose!
Dana5140
6. Sassy Eggs
 
Posts: 379
Topics: 6
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Location: Down in the Zero


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby sacinema » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:17 pm

There are a lot of different reasons we all love Tara and Willow as a couple. In fact the love for this couple might be the only reason we all agree on. And I am totally fine with the not talking about anything JW and after Seeing Red related. But I am really not okay with all the JW bashing going unnoticed while every time he or anything after Seeing Red is being noticed in a slightly more positive way is demanded to stick to the rules. The rules are for everyone joining the board. So also JW bashing should be out of question, because he is not to be mentioned at all.
She's not drivin stick anymore?
User avatar
sacinema
6. Sassy Eggs
 
Posts: 363
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:36 pm
Location: Germany


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Katharyn » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:40 am

Those FAQ rules were brought in during the period where a lot of people were VERY hurt by what had happened in S6 of BTVS when it aired. For context for a long time there had been rumours of what might happen and at that time a lot of people believed in the creator of the show and that - ultimately - everything would be okay. Over months and months there were THOUSANDS of posts about this. Because spoiler or not, we all knew that after all death meant nothing in the show, after all everyone who died came back to life. Oh, except... yeah, Tara.

Further we'd had 'invasions' here by people telling us to get over ourselves, that the creator of the show was just so wonderful that all that mattered was what he thought was cool and basically belittled our feelings in our own house. The Kittenboard was here right from S4, it didn't come into being afterwards, but you can imagine - watching it 'live' how that made people feel. Hence the FAQ to keep things under control, to avoid bitterness and arguments etc. The FAQ allows people who are fans of the show's creator to be here - love T/W and keep silent about him. It allows people who hate the creator to be here - love T/W - and keep silent about him. Bitterness/worship of the creator could go elsewhere.

I have no idea if the threads from those days are still around, but reading through all that stuff would inform those who have followed. I welcome anyone who is a T/W, God knows this is a wonderful place to be running so long after the end of the show and so strongly with an active fic community. However the FAQ is very clear as to what this board is intended to be be. It is for T/W fandom. It is not a BTVS or it's creator fan page.

Ultimately the founder of the board is - probably since we are ad free - still paying money to keep it up for us all. As such the rules still apply. Even though Xita is not around much and we are effectively unmoderated that's just the way this place is.

What has slipped really (and I totally understand why) is that the moderation is no longer there so people who don't know the background context of the board (rather than the show) see threads that really shouldn't be here. Then they see replies from 'old-timers' who know the history and resent them. I get that, I do. Fact though, there are many, many places for BTVS fandom and that of it's creator. This place is the only one for T/W and where the bad side of that is banned.

I agree. We shouldn't be bashing the creator here. In fact - as you will see - I have not mentioned that person by name at all.

However, as mentioned a couple of times. The board is not effectively moderated any more. It can't be and those standards have slipped. Some of us choose to maintain them, some of us choose to just bash on anything we think is against FAQ and some of us just don't have the background here to know about that stuff. The community is - shockingly - active and it has changed. However I think the intent of the board should remain the same while it is here.

T/W Forever.

The rest, just don't talk about it at all. No bashing, just keep away from it. There isn't freedom of speech here any more than there is on any other website. Rules and laws apply wherever you go. Here we should be just keeping it to T/W. Not bashing anyone but not supporting anyone but the girls (and each other) either.

Just my two pennies. :kgeek

Katharyn
-------------------------
If I wanted a little pussy, I've got my own to play with.

Chance in *Chance*
-------------------------
Katharyn
23. Volumey Text
 
Posts: 3794
Topics: 5
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:23 pm


Re: The Joss Debate

Postby Willowtree252 » Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:13 pm

I am locking this thread Thanks
Dia the spelunker
Never underestimate the powerful love of a good woman
If you were a cave what kind of cave would you be
User avatar
Willowtree252
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
Ms. Moderator Fantastico
 
Posts: 9808
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:41 pm
Location: Next to an Angel in Houston Texas


Return to Board index

Return to The Litterbox

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


Powered by phpBB The phpBB Group © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007
Style based on a Cosa Nostra Design