Stalking the Wild Cliché

[kyraroc]

This is a thread to keep track of and comment on the further permutations of the dead/evil lesbian cliché as it unfolds in Season 7. Is it worse than we could have possibly imagined? Is it pretty much the same old same old? Are they trying to ignore it in the hopes that it will just go away? Are they making lame, misguided attempts to win back the lesbian audience? Or, will the miracle occur and they'll actually, unexpectedly, somehow make it right?

[Bagheera]

To kick this off - I begin from a position of absolute pessimism. At one of the Cons earlier this year, said "Willow dies!" When he's as trite and throwaway as this, IMO he's often telling the truth. I believe the cliche will go all the way. That's just my current belief, and I wish it wasn't the case and I will happily be proved wrong. The only way from here is up.

Everybody knew Bagheera, and nobody cared to cross his
path; for he was as cunning as Tabaqui, as bold as the wild buffalo, and as reckless as the wounded elephant. But he had a voice as soft as wild honey dripping from a tree, and a skin softer than down. Rudyard Kipling

[tommo]

I'm actually rather interested in the first couple of episodes, when Willow is in England with Giles. To me, it smacks wholly of "curing" the lesbian. I know the magick was a metaphor for sex, and then it wasn't, and then it was just something really unpleasant altogether...



But if that metaphor still stands in some way; is Giles trying to "cure" Willow of her sexuality and put her on the road back to Boystown? Uh, not literally, of course. But that's my motivation for watching at the beginning, I think.



Just a thought.

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"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[The Partisan]

Interesting thought...not sure if it'll play out that way, but it's something to look for (in the wildfeed for me, at least). Ironically, though, from what I've read of the spoilers, it sounds like Willow's going to become one with the magic...take that metaphor however you like it.



Edited to add: I really need to break down and get myself some glasses...I've been reading this topic as "Staking the Whedon cliche".

Edited by: The Partisan at: 9/9/02 2:26:07 pm

[tommo]

I'll take it as um...Willow's at one with her sexuality.



Crap. Like that would happen.

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"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[drlloyd11]

ruth said

Quote:

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I'm actually rather interested in the first couple of episodes, when Willow is in England with Giles.

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Liar! You want to see if you can see your house on TV..



-dr lloyd, assuming england is about the size of rhode island, only with better weather..

[Italiangirl]

Bagheera - Willow dying? I thought she had already signed a contract making herself available for a season 8 and 9, or maybe just 8? I thought I read that somewhere. Anyone have the scoop?



Although, I know, I know, as long as you aren't Tara, being dead doesn't mean you can't be on the show.



*sigh*

"You're in my blood like holy wine/ You taste so bitter, and so sweet

Darling, I could drink a case of you/ And still be on my feet;

I would still be on my feet." -Joni Mitchell

Edited by: Italiangirl  at: 9/9/02 10:28:11 pm

[AutumnT]

Hannigan, Marsters, and Little Nicky B. all have contracts past this season.

Autumn

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Buffy Season 6: It grated, like something forced in where it doesn't belong.

[Coma123]

Or at least options.

[GiveMeChocolate]

Hey, haven't we learnt yet, Willow 'The Lesbian' will be meaninglessly killed, but then bought back by Giles as a good little straight girl!



Sorry, the bitterness hasn't left me.

Axe, not gonna cut it

[tyche]

The only kind of hope I have left is that maybe, after laying out the cliché in all its glory, they'll actually subvert it in some way. (And I'm sure that some will argue that Willow's 'redemption', whatever form it takes, will invalidate the fact that she was seen to go evil right after having wild lesbian sex. Yeah. Whatever.)

But after the 'jokes' which ME's writers and producers have made at the expense of the gay community and W/T shippers .. I really don't think any kind of subversion is going to happen.

[Willow] should have taken time out for a few minutes to slowly torture Xander for sounding like a Hallmark card on crack. - My fiance's review of the 'yellow crayon' speech.

[tommo]

Quote:

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Liar! You want to see if you can see your house on TV..

---

That's right, because on a clear day, you can see from Manchester to Devon.



And I don't believe that even Joss would be stupid enough to kill off Willow. Ain't gonna happen. Not ever. He knows tv gold when he sees it. Too bad he doesn't know tv shite when he makes it as well...



Woo, bitter. Sorry. I will reserve judgment until I've seen Season 7. I will. Uh, honest.

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"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[helpful information perha]

actually whedon said that willow dies thing at the emmy panel thing the academy ran. and given the way he was "kidding"/threw it out there I also would believe it true



but then I already believe the willow I knew and loved is dead. The cold blooded killer with magic running through her, well thats not the willow I knew.



from what I've read I'm guessing whedon will try and hand wave away willows murders in the first ep and move on



then have her say her good by to tara in the 4th ep and that will be that



I wouldn't be surprised if he has her dating again some time late in Nov sweeps



tara who?



I'm not holding out any hope for subverting the cliche



if anything whedon will think having amber back as another character is enough of a hook to return his audience

[relativegirl]

Apologies up front if we wanted to avoid speculation in this thread, but I have a question:

Quote:

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Or, will the miracle occur and they'll actually, unexpectedly, somehow make it right?

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I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on what it would take to "somehow make it right"? I don't intend for my question to sound sarcastic or bitchy; I am honestly curious if anyone has imagined an outcome or a plotline in season 7 that would/could "make it right".

~ If I should rock you,
the whole world would rock within my arms ~

[friskylez]

RG, The only way to make it right for me is to make season 6 except for the couple of good episodes with W/T go away..Season six was a figmant of our imagination..The season finale was Entropy, season 7 begins with W/T back together..And hey send me that email again Im intrigued..

Tara "Every time I.. even when I'm at my worst ... you always make me feel special. how do you do that?"
Willow "Magic "

[kyraroc]

Actually, I can conceive of plotlines which would partially redeem Season 6 in my eyes - although pretty much all of them would at this point have to involve, one way or another, living Tara and living Willow together and happy. If the other characters are also handled gracefully, and the muddled plot of Season 6 evolves into something consistent and having a point, I might then be able to consider Season 6 a sort of shoddy "Empire Strikes Back" in retrospect - a darker, gloomier second act that only works when fitted into a larger trilogy (in this case, the trilogy of seasons that essentially began with "Restless".)



For that, at minimum, Season 7 would probably have to involve:



A genuine subversion of the lesbian cliche established thus far (almost certainly must include Willow & Tara together and happy),

A reasonable, more-than-meets-the-eye explanation for the sudden, never-seen-before addictive nature of magic,

A reasonable, more-than-meets-the-eye explanation for Willow's attempt to end the world,

A resolution of Spuffy which does not involve Spike being forgiven for his attempted rape,

A deeper look at the ethics of several characters whose moral issues have largely gone unexamined (Xander, Anya, Buffy in her relationships),

A process of growth and maturation for all the characters which leaves them either somewhere better than they were at the beginning of season 5, or severely screwed over for not changing



There's more that would be nice to see, but I personally think that's a decent minimal set.



The problem is, I don't think for a moment that it's going to happen.



I mean, the last three are possible, I think, and it would certainly be nice to have them, but without the first three in Season 7, the main plot of Season 6 is still both offensive and an almost nonsensical train wreck. And the first three I suspect will happen when pigs fly. Every word out of ME since Tara's death has been that her death was final - not a single person has even bothered to say, "Trust us - the story isn't over yet." Not a hopeful sign. And nothing about the addiction and world-ending storylines seemed to imply that they were anything more than what they seemed to be at the time - both heavy-handed and coming out of nowhere.



If there was a genuine "three year plan", Season 6 makes me think it was neither well-conceived nor well-executed, and the opposite would have to be true for Season 7 to fix things; personally, I don't think there really was such a plan at all, and they were just muddling through. In that case, ME must near instantly acknowledge the mistakes of Season 6 and work not just to fail to repeat them but to actually rectify them in order for Season 7 to do the job. And I suspect that would take a lot more self-analysis and humility than they've got.



But I guess we'll see.



Edited to add - Incidentally, though, my minimum set for "the miracle occurring" is just Willow and Tara alive and together and happy. If that was the only one that happened out of everything I listed, I would still think Season 6 was pretty bad, but would cheerfully admit that ME had done right by their fans. Does that make me shallow?



--- KR

Edited by: kyraroc at: 9/12/02 12:22:44 am

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

The more I read about season 7 the less I am looking forward to it. I am going to watch the season to



a) See what happens to Willow



b) See if by some miracle they repair the damage.



Am doubtful though.

[justastraightdog]

KR, I know this won't help you, cause I'm known as a shallow person myself, but I have to admit that I basically feel the same way. They can mess up everything else - if they find a way to provide a hopeful ending for W/T - and 'though it won't reduce my anger about the use of the cliché or change my opinion that it's my social responsibility to fight against it - somewhere deep inside it will be ok for me.



A few days ago I was bored and thought "how about a nice and save MotW ep from season 2?". Got the CD, started to watch and everything was fine until a particular cute redhead entered the screen. Then my stomach told me to switch off immediately.



Damned, this show meant a lot to me. It was not only my favorite hour on tv for 5 years, it brought me to the net, it made me some friends and it helped me through a bad time in my life (how I'm glad that that was during season 3 ). And now it's gone - completely.



The argument that the show won't run forever and that it therefore doesn't matter if one of its stories has ended sooner, doesn't make any sense to me.



I still enjoy re-runs of ST:TOS or TNG, I don't know how often I've seen my favorite movies (Inherit the Wind, Dr. Strangelove, Harold and Maude to name a few of them), when I love a book, I'll read it again. I read my all-time-favorite book for the first time when I was 14, and since then I've read it at least 20 times. I know that it's not high literature, but I love the movie I see whenever I read the book. I love that movie so much, I don't need or want to see Hollywood's version of it. No matter how many Hugos the trilogy will achieve - it can't competite against my own imagination.



Maybe I love it so much, because it's a connection between myself as a 14 years old and myself as a thirtysomething. What are we without our memories? How can we hope to grow if we forget where we came from? Our brain is a funny thing. You can try to remember a certain moment, a certain feeling and it won't work. And then you hear a stupid song on the radio and it's there. Or you hear a few lines of dialog from a tv show...



So here I stand and I can't let go. I won't watch the upcoming season, but I will be stupid enough to hope to find an untainted way back to my own memories until I've read the wildfeed for 7x22.



I know that it's wrong. But sorry, I can't help it.

_________________________________
Life's a laugh and death's a joke. It's true. You'll see it's all a show.

Keep 'em laughing as you go. Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

[Gatito Grande]

Is it OK to do spec in this thread?



If so: I'm also one of the "so very shallow" Kittens who by me BTVS is fine if Willow-n-Tara are happily snuggling.



When it comes to ME's "Tara won't be back" commentary, I take it as either A) Outright lying---certainly a possibility!, or B) Teasing a technicality for the sake of preventing spoilers---or C) they're telling the truth---in which case they can "f*** off and d**" for ever.



A)means that ME are deeply flawed people (was there any doubt?) but that we nevertheless get Our Tara back.



B) is the tricky one: ME are still deeply flawed for having put their most devoted fans! through this sh*t in the first place. You can't leave "The Cliche" out there for 4+ months w/o it doing damage, even if there was a plan to subvert it all along. But, if there is a technicality involved here (in some sense it's true that Tara doesn't come back), can they still make it right? In other words, can they still make the story right for me?



For me they can. Barely. IF "Technically Not-Tara" (TNT):



1)Is portrayed by Amber (Duh!)

2)Has Tara's memories

3)Has Tara's emotional connection (aka "My Always-My Everything") to Willow, and

4)This emotional connection is re-established in a cathartic reunion.



4)is key for me: the pain Willow (and I believe Tara) has experienced can only be redeemed if her/their healing begins All At Once. There has to be a moment of ecstatic mutual recognition. #4 (combined w/ #1 of course) ratifies 2 & 3. #4 means that "TNT" is Tara in a way that Willow knowingly (i.e. not deluded) accepts---and that we poor beleaguered Kittens can too (well, this one can anyway!)



This still doesn't mean that all is forgiven vis-a-vis ME. There are still issues of trust which I for one may never get over. But if there is a cathartic reunion between W&T, I can commit to following the larger story of BTVS again----as long as Joss never f*cks w/ me again!



Only a truckload (i.e. rest-of-the-series) of WT smoochies can overwhelm the lingering bad aftertaste of Season Sux.



GG And I'm hoping for it. Not betting on it, mind you, but hoping for it. To wit: <----the Hope Hop Out

[xita]

GG, there are many things they can do to make this better and outlining it the way you did , I would buy into that for making things better, not ok, never ok, but better. I guess I just lost hope they believe in w/t love like we do. And that's where my hope went.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

[Sheridan]

If Joss revealed some osrt of biger picture in which all the disasters of S6 made sense that might go some way to redeeming the show, some evil power that deliberately precipitated the events of S6, whicvh would of course remove the bar to the higher powers restoring Tara. There are a a number of points that were suspicious:



A) The Urn of Osiris wasn't it just so convient that the only remaining URn turns up on Ebay just when they needed it?



B) The gunshot how did that bullet find it's way through the window?



C) The satanic temple just how did Willow know the temple was there?



If Joss wanted to he could create an out and make a true grandstand spectacle, sadly I doubt he still has that in him.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[Gatito Grande]

Oh, when it comes to the "how" of bringing Tara (or "Technically Not Tara") back, there are enough dangling threads to weave a rug. Far too many to count.



No, the problem is one of will, not way. The Permanence of Tara's Death (POTD---can you tell GG loves acronyms and abbreviations? ) rests on two things, one explicit and one implicit (which is also becoming explicit):



1) "POTD was needed in order to create the necessary conditions for the emergence of DMW" : this is stated ad nauseum, most recently by Amber (who unfortunately still appears constrained to mouth the party line). Assuming this is true, and assuming DMW is still necessary to the further meta-narrative of BTVS, DMW seems (from early S7 spoilers) to be part of the furniture now. Willow contains (at least) DMW. Therefore, it doesn't make sense that Tara's Return would in anyway remove DMW, if that's an issue.



No, reason #1 would not seem to bar Tara's/TNT's return. So that brings us to



2) POTD satisfied Joss's longtime urge to kill ( Kill for REAL) a cast member. This is where the rubber meets the road. In this case, Tara's Return would (apparently in Joss's eyes) "undo" Joss's "kill the cast member" fantasy, er, vision.



For some bizarre reason, Amber's tenure on the show, the mental health of Willow (and hence the Scoobs), the continuing/future success of BTVS---and perhaps all of Mutant Enemy Productions!, are being held hostage to the "integrity" of Joss's obsession.



This may be more a question for hip or Bob, but are Marti, and David, and Jane, and Drew (even Steve?) such sycophants as to put all of their careers on the line for the maintainance of this sick joke?!



GG Or can "refreshing sanity" (to say nothing of honesty, romance and art) break out/through Whedon's cranium? Out

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

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Originally posted by Gatito Grande:

For some bizarre reason, Amber's tenure on the show, the mental health of Willow (and hence the Scoobs), the continuing/future success of BTVS--- and perhaps all of Mutant Enemy Productions!, are being held hostage to the "integrity" of Joss's obsession.



This may be more a question for hip or Bob, but are Marti, and David, and Jane, and Drew (even Steve?) such sycophants as to put all of their careers on the line for the maintainance of this sick joke?!

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Okay, I'm not sure exactly what you're calling a "sick joke," but in any case I still think I'm able to answer your question.



The rank-and-file writers like Jane and Drew and Steve really aren't putting their careers on the line any more than SMG or Aly or Michelle are. They're the foot soldiers, not the Generals. They write what they're told to write, just as the actors say and do what they're told to say and do. I doubt any of them will be putting bits from S6 and S7 in their portfolios, but they have plenty of good material from earlier seasons to show off their talents. When Buffy goes down, as all shows do sooner or later, they're not going to have any trouble landing on their feet.



This is also true for Marti and David, although to a lesser extent. They can always point out that Joss still has the last word on everything.



But what's even more of an influence on them, I think, is that I don't think any of them believe this is that big a deal. Yes, people are upset and yes, the ratings are dropping, but you can't pin all of that on Tara's death, and you can't expect to fix all of that by bringing Tara back. It's said that in Hollywood the number one rule is "Nobody knows anything" - you never know for certain what an audience is going to like and what they're not going to like. So even though we think bringing Tara back will help the show, from their perspective and with their mindset the direction Joss wants to take is no less likely to bring the numbers up again.



And the sad fact is that as bad as Buffy has become, there are still shows out there that are worse. As offensive as Buffy has become, there are still shows out there that are more offensive.

------------------------------------------------
"A man who fails well is greater than one who succeeds badly" - Thomas Merton

[Gatito Grande]

Yeah, there are worse shows. But I'm thinking "the bigger they are, the harder they fall." If a show was always kaka (gone yesterday, if it made it to the air at all), that's one thing. But to run a well-established and respected (outside the Emmys anyway!) show into the ground is something else.



How many ships sank in the Atlantic in 1912? A bunch, I'm sure. But one sunk ship was notorious. The White Star Line never really recovered from the loss of The Titanic (supposedly "unsinkable"). Can ME (and those closely associated w/ its demise) recover from destroying Buffy? (If *I* were a certain co-producer w/ a brand-new baby, I'd wonder!)



The "sick joke" I was referring to was the "Kill the cast member" stunt apparently long-desired by Joss.

Quote:

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Yes, people are upset and yes, the ratings are dropping, but you can't pin all of that on Tara's death, and you can't expect to fix all of that by bringing Tara back. It's said that in Hollywood the number one rule is "Nobody knows anything" - you never know for certain what an audience is going to like and what they're not going to like.

---

Agreed. It's just that the benefits of bringing her back seem so much greater than the costs of doing so. The risk seems loaded onto "maintaining the 'kill the cast member' vision" compared to the relatively risk-free option of Bringing Tara Back.



GG I don't know "The Biz" well enough to think of a White Star Line/Titanic example. Yet I feel quite confidant there are some. Oh, what about Michael Cimino? "The Deer Hunter" to "Heaven's Gate" to oblivion! Out

[Sheridan]

Quote:

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How many ships sank in the Atlantic in 1912? A bunch, I'm sure. But one sunk ship was notorious

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I think you have a point. There are shows on TV that are way worse than Buffy even after S6, but they never aspired to be any better. If a show was consistently disappointing in it's characterisation and it trotted out the cliche would it attract more than a weary sigh? Buffy hurt us because we expected so much more from it.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

Edited by: Sheridan at: 9/14/02 4:51:12 pm

[chelehel74]

Maybe I'm being the optimist here by I do believe the ME team realized the error of their ways. I don't think even if they could they would take back any of their decisions but I agree with an earlier post ..."Willow will be one with the magic."



And I believe (despite other comments later revealed as false) that ME is keeping Willow gay.



And I believe we are going to get to see the human grief that Willow experienced. I would guess she was immediately shipped off to England and probably missed Tara's funeral.



At least if they play out the cards they dealt the fans last season and allow Willow to grieve in a non-evil-witch way. Not pretend like everything is all better in the shows attempt to be all "happy this season" then I will be a believer again.



I also think we might see a plot point reaction to everything that the loudest of fans, the kittens , have been pushing on ME to realize all summer.



But now we wait and see,

[xita]

You know that's a lot of assumptions to make, giving the benefit of the doubt to people who have not shown they can be trusted. My heart was quite involved in willow and tara, I can't afford to put it on the line for people who don't care about the fans. If I wasn't so involved perhaps I could afford to hope. Give me proof otherwise and I'll stand right there on the hope harbor.



And still Tara is dead, and Tara is staying dead, and seriously, no Tara.. no good.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Edited by: xita  at: 9/14/02 4:27:03 pm

[urnofosiris]

Quote:

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Maybe I'm being the optimist here by I do believe the ME team realized the error of their ways.

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Somehow I really doubt that, given the fact that every time when one of them opens their mouth they only manage to offend more and that they censored Tara from the promo. If they have seen the error of their ways they will bring Tara back. Alive. That is the only thing that will even make this show remotely ok for me again. I would not even mind if it was in the very last minute of the show. It is the ending that matters. I don't want to watch Willow grieving and ultimately coping and moving on, that will not undo this cliche.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[Killin Joke]

Bought the "High Art" DVD yesterday: selected the bed scene -> solely watched that one... It's becoming a habit (I foresee forwarding concerning my "Beyond the city limits" DVD too)

Anyway, Willow... Saw the first pics of her (and Giles) She looks awfully sad. No doubt in my mind Aly will excell at portraying Will's grief, as it should be, even if the other characters don't give a /bleep/ about... /sigh/

What we know: magic will be a part of Willow. If they follow the metaphor - which they didn't all the way: symbolism was quite ambiguous this season - but if they do, and magic = lesbianism, that would mean a small victory... Well, that remains to be seen. I except respect when it comes to Tara. Willow will grieve, but I have no high hopes for the others. The option of Willow dating an other /shiver/ lies open. Even Aly would have problems with it, especially if it comes too soon. I don't even wanna include Oz (-> magic-symbol: she's a lesbian, dammit !) but I don't wanna exclude another girlfriend... Got me thinking. Has anyone of you kitties seen a lesbian couple on tv, who split up, or got seperated one way or another, and got together with another girl after that ? If not, it would mean some sort of progress, but I really don't wanna ponder on that, because it hurts to much. On the other hand: someone mentioned Tara and Amber being two different characters (well, duh !). Tara will come back, we just don't know in what entity, for how many minutes in how many episodes. Amber might come back too, playing another character. But even if she'd play Will's new lover, she can never fill Tara's shoes, she won't have Tara's adorable personality... Uch, it sucks being left in the dark. Think I'm gonna type some vixeny fanfic tomorrow

"Visions dance throughout the night in the pale moon light in the witching hour" (Symphony X)

[Warduke]

Quote:

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Tara will come back, we just don't know in what entity, for how many minutes in how many episodes. Amber might come back too, playing another character.

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Amber might be back, but Tara won't be back, this is what we've been told time and time again.

_________________________


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