Willow ...scene from 4.. - Spoilers

[Bagheera]

Quote:

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taking a life "changes everything" that was the basis of the shows canon for how many seasons?

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I don't completely agree with this. If I can draw a parallel with quantum physics (and I hope I'll be excused for this), the Buffyverse is laced with contradiction, it's a place where the real world's laws of morality and responsibility break down. At various times just about everyone in the show has behaved irresponsibly, negligently or even in a manner that we would call illegal (and these acts have at times resulted in the deaths of others) and have not been punished.

The only "crime" on BtVS that is always punished is happiness

Just my opinion

"Numfar, do the dance of failure!" The "Angel" line I most want to hear.

[famer]

Let me make this clear: I hate the fact Tara's been murdered and therefore, any grave scene is personally abhorrent to me.



However, I think that the scene can be conducted in ways that gives the tiniest bit of respect to Willow & Tara's relationship. For example, anything Willow would have to say to Tara would be intensely private and that type of respect can be communicated by having the camera pull back, lingering on Willow on Tara's grave and for us *not* hearing what Willow says. Now that will only work if we spend a number of moments watching Willow and watching her grief over Tara. As for the "hey, it's me", it seems immediately intimate, it's like Tara's constantly on her mind.



EDITED TO ADD: I agree with those who say that more exposition, if well done, would be better. I also have to stress that when I wrote the above I didn't assume that this was the closure (and therefore sole) scene re: Willow & Tara .



If this is the Tara closure scene, I agree it sucks big time. That's no kind of closure -- it's too pat for a relationship whose essence was aptly articulated by declarations of 'i'll always find you' and 'you're my everything'. I just realized that I've been naive in presuming that there were further Willow & Tara scenes to come. Don't know where that came from really, such baseless optimism. In this light, it does look really really bad.

Edited by: famer at: 9/26/02 8:07:17 am

[xita]

Well I don't like the grave scene and I'll tell you why? TARA'S DEAD! And will stay in the ground. This scene is supposed to be CLOSURE so Willow can go find herself another honey.



And please stay on topic, it's about the w/t and the grave scene, anything else, needs to be taken elsewhere.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Edited by: xita  at: 9/25/02 11:42:43 pm

[Killin Joke]

/sigh/ Seems to me I'll have to expand my (bad) wardrobe once more... After my Xena-shirt "Her soulmate got killed and all she got was this lousy tatoo", I oughta print a Buffy one, saying: "Her soulmate got killed and all she got was this lousy black wig/grave scene/..."



They could blame Xena for being inconsistent all they wanted, but one thing's for sure, the major themes you also find in Literature: love and death, were always treated with respect.

On Xena death meant nothing and at the same time everything. I'm not even gonna try to sum up the numerous funeral pyres/songs we gotta see/hear... Whether it was for a redshirt, amazon, friend or beloved, even someone they just met, didn't know that long, there were tears, talks... Coffins, urns, tombs aside, the characters cared... something I felt was missing after Seeing Red. I've always admired Buffy for being so consistent in their story lines... Not anymore.



A simple grave scene isn't gonna change anything. If they're on the damage control cruise, the least they can do is show some grief over Tara. How can they possibly not mention her name, not once ? What the hell is up with that ? Are they planning on having her return as a good goddess to have a Tara/Glory stand-off ? Can't they utter her name ? Will they have to start babbling "Your Tarrificness" Sheesh. Who are these people ? If I watch, it'll be solely for Willow, but even Will exclaims she doesn't feel like herself.



I think Gabby said it best at the end of The Deliverer: "It hurts inside... Everything's changed... Everything." Uch, I think I'm gonna join my fellow kitties in a drink /walks towards fridge to grab a beer/

"Visions dance throughout the night in the pale moon light in the witching hour" (Symphony X)

[DRUSILLA LOVER]

willows never going to be herself, and i am really pissed, cuz i really really really miss the old willow.

[tommo]

However, without wanting to divert the discussion, Willow and Tara are a slightly different couple than Xena and Gabrielle. There's the fact that Willow and Tara are actually a couple, in the first place. Oh, and they kiss. And they have sex. And they're lesbians. And they're a couple.



I'm not sure what help comparisons are, at this stage.

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"I feel like I've been split down the center and half of me is lost." Yeah Willow, I know exactly what you mean...

[Taz]

more good news

[Killin Joke]

Sorry for maybe having gone slightly off topic, Ruth I wasn't so much trying to compare "couples", just wanted to point out that death in general was treated with a bit more respect on Xena, at least in the long run. The ep "The Body" was brilliant. It's insane how someone can create such a pearl and later come up with crap like Villains and Grave... I still don't get it. Because Willow and Tara were a real lesbian couple it bloody hurts so much (hence, the Gabby quote). I'm actually frustrated with myself that I let it get to me so deeply. I got over the end of Xena (they parted with a smile on their face), but Tara: NEVER ! Saw a flash of publicity for Life serial today: Tara talking to Buff in the hallway: like seeing a ghost. I have to start university again next week, and I'm afraid I'll be seeing Tara hallucinations in the hall... Again: I apologize for expressing myself all wrong. I just miss Tara and Willow

"Visions dance throughout the night in the pale moon light in the witching hour" (Symphony X)

[asinnema]

Um, maybe I'm too optimistic.. but as it is the last scene from episode 4, maybe it's some kind of cliffhanger and ep 5 will begin at the grave site? Also, I still remember that Amber was contracted to at least be available this season, and Amber's mother saying at that con that we "haven't seen the last of Tara". Is it maybe a eency-weency small possibility that ep 5 we'll see Amber again? In whatever form? :/





Anneke



This is not the thread to discuss the cliché. This thread is for the pain these scenes are going to cause people.-bytrsuite

I'm like that kid in the
story, the boy that stuck his finger in the duck."

Edited by: BytrSuite at: 9/29/02 2:55:27 am

[urnofosiris]

Yes you are and nope there is not.

--------------------

Tara: "uh Willow?"

Willow: "No dancing naked, huh?...It just won't be the same."

Tara: "That's all right, we can save it for later" ----From Wilderness, the newest WT comic written by Amber Benson and Christopher Golden

[miawillow]

I just wanted to say that I don't think for one minute that there is anything more important on Willow's mind that the reality of Tara's death. Just because we haven't physically seen or heard her grief, doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means that the writers, producers, and creator kind of suck. But then we already knew that. When Willow first appeared in the premiere, I immediately felt her pain. She looked so lost and broken. Kudos to AH for being able to convey such emotion. Willow was the reason I started watching in the first place! I won't let her down now.

Tara: Every time I... even at my worst, you always make me feel special. How do you do that?
Willow: Magic

[Sheridan]

Quote:

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Willow was the reason I started watching in the first place! I won't let her down now

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Problem is that Joss will. his sole interest in Willow for S7 is as a whipping boy for everything that goes wrong, the Willow we knew is truly gone..

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Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[missykittykatty]

"Kudos to AH for being able to convey such emotion."



I listened to the promo of Seeing Red (haven't actually seen it, not sure I want to) and cried my heart out when I heard Willow saying "no, no". After that I rewatched all of my season 4 and season 5 shows and cried loads more. Aly conveys such pure misery when she cries. I'm not sure I can watch this episode with her at Tara's grave. I'm sure Aly will do it in such a touching heartbreaking way. There I'm doing it again

[drlloyd11]

I almost forgot, when willow is staring at the glass in the end, she is staring at the repaired bullet hole in her and Taras room. Actually, forgot is not right, surpressed is more like it.

[aeonflux666]

Please tell me she's not staying in that room.

[fontaine13]

I had kinda half gathered or guessed this anyway - I mean why should she just be staring at any old glass. Oh no let's stick the boot in even further and make it the repaired glass in the room that in my opinion she really shouldn't be able to stand being in anymore. OK this is getting a little ranty.

Willow: "Will that involve
getting up?" 

Tara: "Eventually"

Willow: "Then I'm coming
out firmly against it"

[VampNo12]

Thanks drlloyd! How nice the scoobies can apparently fix the bullet hole in Willow's room, but don't seem to care enough to show concern for their friend Willow (and what she is going through). And if Willow has to live in the Summer's house, must she have to endure the pain/torture of sleeping in the same room that she not only shared with her soul-mate, but before her very eyes saw her soul-mate killed? Of course, who am I kidding, ME I am sure wouldn't want to pass up any opportunity to torture Willow (I mean there is no fun in that, right) That's sarcasm.

Edited by: VampNo12  at: 10/6/02 8:32:31 pm

[themagicpixie]

This week: Willow visits Tara's grave.



Um. So did Tara have a funeral? Did her family come back for it? What was said? Are the police looking for a murderer? Wouldn't they still be arounding grilling SuperConstructionMan, DodgyBlondVamp and MiseryGirls #s 1, 2, 3 & 4?



I wouldn't be surprised if Tara's headstone fell on Willow, crushing her, and then Xander came along with his big digger and a 6-pack of Bud and saved her. And then Buffy got cancelled.



Edited to add: if they seriously expect one single viewer to believe Willow would still be sleeping in the same room her girlfriend was murdered in, then I think they may have stolen our hope crack pipe and be using it for their own nefarious purposes. I like that a repaired window is probably going to get more screen time and attention than Tara in Season 7.

There will probably be a whole scene:



Xander is up a ladder outside Buffy's house, singing "Xander's Silver Hammer" and replacing the glass window a bullet went through.



BUFFY (shouting up): Hey. Whatcha doin'?

XANDER: Fixing the window. You know, a bullet went through it.

BUFFY: Oh yeah. Damn bastard whatshisname, breaking my window.

XANDER: Well, it's as good as new now. I think that's all the damage from the summer fixed now. You feeling OK?

BUFFY: Yep.

WILLOW (sitting in the garden with her laptop): Hmm... Doogie Doogie Doogie. Now normally, taking your Dad's car keys without permission WOULDN'T end tragically, but I think I might have the car hit a tree...

BUFFY: You're killing off Doogie?! In Doogie Howser fanfic?

WILLOW: Wouldn't want to be all sentimental and please the fans, would I?

BUFFY: Guess not. Ooh, in that case give Xander more screen time.



*30 minutes of Xander with a hammer. Then he drives a big truck, hits some women and gets some sex from a whore, before Anya begs him to take her back as her life is meaningless without him*



*Buffy sleeps with Spike. Scenes shown in nauseating detail*



*Roll credits*

Edited by: themagicpixie at: 10/7/02 3:50:42 am

[sistakind]

i need to rant here

ok i understand the no funeral deal...well i don't understand it but knowing joss i see why its not there...but having just a 30 second mourning is lame and disrepectful. its not like tara was on the show for half a season..i mean come on. she meant more...deserves more and so does willow. its so sad...i mean of course i'm gonna watch just for the tara reference..but couldn't they devote more of tara's death to an episode?

[DRUSILLA LOVER]

they had better at least give us her name outloud. why cant someone just say the name "tara" outloud. thats all i want. i mean, theres more that i want, but obvously i aint giong to get tara on the show, and id ont want her on there anymore. But i do want her being acknoledge dammit! grrr...

[LostSoul]

I'm going to be crying my eyes out for this one. Although there may be a great deal of annoyance if Xander pulls his 'I'm the comforting friend. The only one that can help you.' crap.



At least it will be good stuff for Alyson. She gets to do some challenging acting for this ep I think.

LostSoul


_____________________________


"I remember you." - Amber Benson

[willntlover]

ABout Willow sleeping in her's adn Tara's old room



um, that was Buffy's room. Her name was on the door, she's apparently moved into Willow adn Tara's old room. SO no she's not staying in that room.





ANd i can't believe that after the *crap* that was shown in ep 3 that any closer will come in any future eps for W/T fans.



-Will

"Hear that baby? You're my always."

"well, you know, when you play a lesbian witch you've gotta get killed in this fun kind of exciting way, so the heart was the way to go..."

"we have the most amazing fans though they LOVE us."

[BethanyB3]

Quote:

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"To have Willow out & about without paying her debts to society, well it badly undermines the shows previous canon." ~HIP

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How come Buffy didn't have to take responsibility for killing several of the "knights" in Season 5. They were human.



How come Giles didn't have to take responsibility for killing Ben, he was human.



How come Xander doesn't have to take responsibility for the people who dies as a direct result of his spell in OMWF. They were human.



I think the show has sought of let the lines of responsibilty blurr already.



edited to include quote

************************************************************** "You learn that night is as beautiful as daytime, that the dark and the light are equal, that neither is better than the other...that life and death exist beside one another, as a balance." High Priestess Judith Laxer

Edited by: BethanyB3 at: 10/9/02 4:52:44 am

[themagicpixie]

Exactly, Bethany. Double standards all the way. We are not constantly hit over the head with what those people did wrong.



Giles is a mentor to the gang, and he kills Ben when the guy is injured and pretty much incapacitated, very calmly and coldly. No-one knows about it; Giles doesn't seem to suffer at all for it.



Willow killed Warren after he murdered the love of her life, and it seems she will never be quite punished enough.



The whole of this Season is one big mistake as it is starting from completely the wrong place.

[birdblue]

well I'm joining you all with the sadness and sickness and drinking.... it is all totally unfair to Tara.

'everyday she cried, not because she was
sad, but because the world was so beautiful, and life was so short'

[BytrSuite]

Any further talk about this episode can go in it's spoiler thread until the episode airs. Thanks.

————––

"There's a whole lot of singing that's never gonna be heard

Disappearing everyday without so much as a word somehow"