Stalking the Wild Cliché

[chelehel74]

Although I hate the thought of not having our nuturing Tara. I would hope if Amber does return they give her something to do that challenges her as the fine actress we know her to be.



I would hate for it to be in the vein of the (rumored) spike is seeing things stuff with a return of the master, dru, etc....



Then I will be MAD PISSED !



I also would say that Killin Joke has a small point - if we do see a return to dating Willow, even at the end of Season 7, at least there would be one giant leap for lesbian characters on tv. The closest we came was Kerry and Kim on ER and Kerry drove Kim away. It wasn't a break-up.



In an ideal world we get our Amber as our Tara back but as we have learned ME doesn't like ideal. ;(

[xita]

Let me put it this way for the purposes of this forum , this Willow and Tara board, please REREAD THE GUIDELINESS for the forum. Willow dating another girl is NOT ON topic, it is not a good thing and will not be discussed here in any positive light. It may be a good thing for lesbians somewhere, but it is not a thing that we will cheer for here or really talk about.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Edited by: xita  at: 9/14/02 11:18:34 pm

[Warduke]

Quote:

---

I would hope if Amber does return they give her something to do that challenges her as the fine actress we know her to be.

---

See, if she's not back as Tara, the only role that would challenge her would be one where her character torments Willow, whether intentional or not, so as far as Amber being back on Buffy as another character, I hope it never happens. I love Amber, but on Buffy, it's Tara or nothing for me, I have no desire at all to see Amber play anything else than Tara on the show.

_________________________


Mozilla : There's a new browser on the block.

[Gatito Grande]

I agree w/ you Warduke, but given we're dealing w/ the Buffyverse (where the supernatural is natural and the paranormal is normal), I'm willing to be a little more expansive as to just who/what "Tara" is (per my "Technically Not Tara" post above).



Last year, we saw Buffy's same ol' body (in a predictable---though yucky! state of decay) revived w/ her same ol' spirit, and we were still informed of her "deep cellular tan" (i.e. change). And we were teased w/ the possibility of "Technically Not Buffy" for half the season.



W/o going into a lot of pointlessly precise speculating, I could see how a being portrayed by Amber, w/ Tara's memories and connection to Willow, who is not morphologically the same as Tara (and not resurrected ala Buffy) could in essence be Tara. This being could come about, for example, by means of magic, or through some alteration of (my Trekkie past is showing!) the time-space continuum, or possibly even through advanced technology.



(Heck, I would even accept a "religious---not my own" explanation if it brought Essentially Tara back! Kinda like that cartoon of the mathmatician who has written a long equation on a blackboard. His collegue is a little non-plussed---as it were---by the fact that in the middle of the equation are the words "And then a miracle occurs!").



GG I'd even buy the "Tara steps out the shower"---better yet, Willow steps in to join her! ---"It (Season Sux) was all a dream" scenario! Out

[mscheckmate]

Quote:

---

Although I hate the thought of not having our nuturing Tara. I would hope if Amber does return they give her something to do that challenges her as the fine actress we know her to be.

---

Amber's a great talent, and I'll watch anything she does. Anything but a not-Tara character on BtVS.



As wonderful as Amber is, it's Tara I want, not Amber. And I want Tara alive and with Willow. Amber appearing as another character, good or evil, would not induce me to watch season seven. And the folks at Mutant Enemy are kidding themselves if they think that bringing Amber back in any role but Tara is going to appease W/T fans.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/15/02 12:05:53 am

[Killin Joke]

Sorry for not having expressed myself more accurately this night, Warduke (typed this up around 4:30 a.m. after 8 beers ! -> end of the exams and all By Tara (briefly ?) coming back, I meant something like: with all the mutual memories she and Willow have, (once more) with feeling, emotions, so that she can (re)establish her connection with Willow. I guess: Tara's essence, but Gatito Grande described it much better, in an almost scientific way (I'm refraining from trying to grasp right now: holy holidays, he, he )



Thanks for understanding what I so clumbsily marveled on, chelehel74. I'm just trying to anticipate all the options they could throw at us. Always be prepared, expect the unexpected, etc. (Everything I need to know I learned from the Warrior Princess, oh, and Willow and Tara of course ) You kinda answered my question that it would be sorta revolutionary for some lesbians who aren't as attached to the Willow/Tara relationship as us kitties, who are able to distance themselves from it, and see it in your avarage realistic "that's life" way. Needless to say, I'm not one of those (even though I might have come across as if I was). I've become too emotionally attached to our cute couple. It's like Gabby without Xena. You can't picture her with anyone else. I'm just grabbing on last straws, desperately hoping to find something positive, even if not for me, maybe for others...



Like mscheckmate and others posted: as much as I love Amber as an actress and person (if I ever have the luck to meet her), it will be plain painful seeing her play anything other than a live Tara together with Willow. Coz, Amber as Will's new girl: won't work: we'd always be comparing her to Tara. Any ressemblance of the living Tara we knew, will be... well, as Joseph Conrad wrote in his novel "Heart of Darkness": 'The Horror, the Horror...'

I just hope that, if they don't bring her back alive, they have something big planned for her, that there's this great plan behind it all, to at least give her death some meaning, the respect Tara deserves, and we can all find some closure and resort in the wonderful realm of fanfic at Pens.

Hereby, I apologize to Xita and kitties I might have offended by 'typing out bold' Never meant to hurt anyone...

"Visions dance throughout the night in the pale moon light in the witching hour" (Symphony X)

[Sheridan]

The only other dead person who returned on the show was Jenny Calendar, and both times she was simply a disguise for a villain. I just can't see Joss bringing Amber back to play a 'good' character. His warped imagination would demand that she be a contrast to Tara so she would almost have to be a bad guy.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the
person you l-love

Willow: I am

[justastraightdog]

Five reasons why they can't bring Tara back, regarding to her role in the scoobie gang:



1) Willow's SO. That would be a mature relationship, they'd need other writers for it. And there aren't many conflicts left between Tara and Willow - which invokes Hollywood's rule that a happy couple is a boring couple.



2) Surrogate mother for Dawn. With Buffy's epiphany from the end of The Grave this isn't longer needed.



3) Catalysator and amplifier for Willow's magic. After DMW Willow has all the magic she needs.



4) Mature, calm and caring "heart" of the scoobies. Not very useful for a season that is more action-orientated, light-hearted and "cool". Not useful at all in the very moment ASH was available for a relevant number of episodes again.



5) A plot device for Willow's character development. Well, after NMR, TL, SR and some other eps that's overused, isn't it?



Yes, 10 minutes at the pens will give you enough ideas how to deal with these problems - but those writers love Tara and care for her, ME doesn't.





But what will happen if Joss starts to think that the soulmates motif is too good to be wasted?

Here is a wild speculation:



They can introduce a new female character (NFC), probably as Dawn's favorite teacher. From here we get a connection to Buffy. The NFC should have some special abilities useful for the scoobies. Via Buffy and Dawn she becomes a part of the scoobies. Then it's time for the authors to do what they can do best: writing a falling-in-love story, NFC/W (read on, this isn't a FAQ violation). But it won't be easy, because Willow will feel guilty for falling in love so soon after Tara's death. Well, new torture for Willow, and many chances to show Aly's irresistable sad or crying face. And a huge conflict with the baby-slayer, because Dawn will have problems to accept anyone who takes Tara's place. What brings us to the climax of this story, to the pivotal point: When Dawn is almost going to slay her, the NFC says something that is a private secret between Dawn and Tara.



And we learn that we watched a "Heaven Can Wait"-like plotline, the NFC is Tara, at least her soul, reincarnated in the body of another woman. If she has or will find any conscious memories of her former life is another question (but with the "her story has ended" statement, no conscious memories is more likely). The irony is, that it's impossible to cast Amber for the NFC, because that would spoil the whole story. That it's possible to bring back Tara, in flesh and blood, as Willow's Tara - but not Amber.



No, I don't like my own speculation. For four reasons: Amber. The chemistry between Amber and Aly. Did I mention Amber? And last but not least: This is only one way to tell the story. There is another way, with more conflict, confusion and trouble, which maybe underlines the soulmates motif even more - and will cause less censorship problems.

If the NFC is going to be a NMC.

_________________________________
No safety or surprise, the end

I'll never look into your eyes...again

[xita]

How about we don't even consider that. There is no Tara but one played by Amber. I am a bit flexible on how, but there is no acceptable resolution that doesn't involve Tara and Amber. Considering other things is just going to get people upset. We have enough pain given to us by the show, do we need to make up some more pain?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
Tara and Willow

Accept NO subsitutes

Edited by: xita  at: 9/15/02 11:52:26 am

[Gatito Grande]

straightdog, you raise some good points about why, according the informal Rules of U.S. TV Drama, Tara oughtn't to be able to come back. But I think that there are ways around them.



1)"stable couple": the problem of a Happy Couple vs. UST (unresolved sexual tension) is mainly a problem for The Star (or The Two Co-stars). David and Maddie, Mulder and Scully. Even Xena and Gabrielle: as much as I wanted to see them unambiguously together since the second season of XWP, I really didn't expect to prior to the Series Finale (whether that happened I leave to another debate!). For this reason, whether it's Angel, or Riley, or Spike, or even---be still my shorts!--- Faith, any Love Relationship Buffy has is guaranteed trouble.



However, BTVS is an ensemble show, and neither Willow nor Tara is the eponymous star. The "UST" rules just don't apply here.



2)Unlike many other dramas where the primary relationships are kinda the point (I believe the term "melodrama"---if not soap! applies here), the Buffyverse always faces Major External Threat. It ain't "Buffy the Psych Final Slayer!"



In this universe, even Joyce and the Nice Guy who Sent Her (her last) Flowers could face some tension If the World Were Coming To An End. A stable couple in these circumstances could even be crucial (as very nearly happened in The Gift: if the point of that ep hadn't been Buffy's Sacrifice, WT's Magic HandClasp---funny how the word "magic" seems redundant here!---definitely would have contributed to Saving the World).



It's this happy (!) fact of External Threat which relativises all the potential problems you listed, straightdog. Given a Big Enough "Bad", even The Buffster can be permitted some happiness (which, as I recall, explains her Making Love w/ Angel the first, and only, time). No couple can be endlessly boring w/ the Sword of Annihilation hanging over 'em.



Melodramas (like soaps) depend on (lame-ass) "new female character" (NFC) plotlines like you described above (lame because of the universe they exist in, not because your imagination is poor, jasd). In fact, it's because the External Threat was so comparatively minor in Season Sux (the Trio) that it began to resemble a soap opera.



No, a good season of BTVS (ala S5 and earlier), w/ an intriguing Big Bad plot, provides the perfect environment in which Essentially Tara shows up, not to slow down the drama, but to Throw it into OverDrive!



GG In spite of everything's that happened in SSux, I still believe Joss has the talent to do this---the question is only of his willingness to do so. Out

[justastraightdog]

Xita: I totally agree with you, but I thought that the Heaven Can Wait plot is lame and ridiculous enough to be taken as the joke that it was. Reading the BBB-remake spoilers I understand that there's nothing too ridiculous for ME and that I have to be much more careful with my jokes. Sorry.



CG: Calling the MFC plot lame doesn't offend me - it was meant to be lame. I agree with everything you said about the big external threat (or the lack thereof), but I still think that a Buffy season without a threat like this could have been interesting. A big challenge for the writers: no melodrama, no soap opera. Creating plot twists out of character development and not the other way round.



But if you start with a discontinuity for the main character - Buffy coming back "wrong" - and your goal is a comic strip like über-witch plot created by a melodramatical stray bullet, it will not work.

_________________________________
No safety or surprise, the end

I'll never look into your eyes...again

[UnrealisticExpectations]

I know the future of the series is, at least, officially undecided and AH's obligations to ME make this kind of improbable but...



I was thinking, which is never a good thing, but say...



Willow dies in this season's finale and it is the series finale. One of the last images they show is Willow finding Tara in a heavenly deminsion and saying something like "I found you" and smoochies close the scene, would that be good or bad?



Because on one hand Willow dies but on the other Tara and Willow are reunited in a heavenly place to live eternally(literally) together which counteracts the opinion of some individuals that gays are damned to hell. Personally, I think it would be a powerful image.



I don't know if I'm explaining this well enough.... and I know that it doesn't change the offensive crap they showed in "Seeing Hell" but in the end W/T get to live and love togethger eternally in a heavenly deminsion.



I'm in no way thinking this has a chance of happening.. I don't have that kind of faith in ME... it was just an idea.

[justastraightdog]

I am an atheist. Though I like to play with religous images and mythology, i don't believe in them. If I'd write an ending like yours, it would be my final offend: showing the impossibility of happiness for lesbians in the most powerful way I can think of - if it's possible only in heaven, it's never possible, because I know that there is no heaven (except we create it here on earth).



AFAIK Joss is an atheist, too.



ETA: "most Americans believe in a Supreme Being" I know this, all I wanted to say is that if you get this ending from Joss, it could be the exact opposite of what you think it is. And to make clear why I wouldn't like to see such an ending.

_________________________________
No safety or surprise, the end

I'll never look into your eyes...again

Edited by: justastraightdog at: 9/16/02 1:58:19 pm

[mscheckmate]

I'm not disagreeing with your beliefs, justastraightdog. But I think that most Americans believe in a Supreme Being, and many that do believe in God also believe that they will be reunited with loved ones after death. So, at least in this country, I think that most viewers would see an image of two lovers being reunited after death as a positive one; everyone would like a love that lasts through all eternity.



Unfortunately, such a heavenly reunion could be all that we'll get from Joss. And that's not enough for me. I don't want heavenly lesbians. I want Willow and Tara reunited in the flesh.



edited to add: I'm not arguing here. How you react to images on TV is just as valid as anyone else's reaction. Just saying that many viewers (not Kittens, but the general public)might automatically react to such a plot-twist positively, regardless of what was really in Joss' heart if he were to write such a scene.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/16/02 2:10:00 pm

[kyraroc]

UnrealisticExpectations, I have to admit I would personally be extremely dissatisfied with that ending, because it seems to ultimately imply that lesbians can find happiness in relationships only in death. While that may arguably be a step up from the implication that they can't find happiness in relationships at all, I can't help but feel that, so to speak, on the New York-to-LA cross-country flight of cliche subversion, that's like a forced landing in New Jersey.



I've put a positively unhealthy amount of thought into the lesbian cliche as it relates to Buffy at this point, and I've personally been unable to think of any way for the show to redeem itself in this regard without, one way or another, the resurrection of Tara. The resurrection could probably take an astonishing variety of forms, but without it, there's pretty much always going to be the corpse of a lesbian rotting away in front of any attempt the show makes to present a lesbian-positive image.



--- KR

[mscheckmate]

kyraroc, a Willow/Tara heavenly reunion also bothers me because it's getting really close to the spectral lesbian cliche'. Having the lovers be disembodied is a classic way to avoid issues of sexuality. Now, I'd like to believe that there will be sex in Heaven , but a corporeal Willow with a corporeal Tara, in a lasting relationship that includes sexuality, is a more positive image because such a flesh and blood relationship is obviously more attainable by all of the young people watching. A heavenly reunion feels like a cop-out.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/16/02 2:25:53 pm

[Gatito Grande]

Amen! to the Happy Fleshy-Boinking in Heaven. Hey, if I were re-writing the ending to The Chronicles of Narnia (whoa, clever of me to go back on topic!) there'd be less Talking Lions and more Sexy Smooching!



Having said that, the BTVS ain't Narnia. If there were any doubt about that, S6 would have removed it by having "Heaven" be a place one could be yanked out of. The basic premise of the show is the triumph of the human over the supernatural. It's not my personal narrative, but I'm not Joss (a fact which last season taught me to regret).



ky I agree w/ you, though I don't think "resurrection" need take the form of resurrecting/resuscitating/"raising" (reanimating a corpse) that we've seen previously. We just need Tara's Soul in a corporeal something . . . portrayed by Amber!



GG Now on Ebay: James Marster's couch . . .



cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI...1563843326



Wake me when we get to Aly/Amber's slippy satin sheets! Out

[mscheckmate]

Well, back in the 60s, they had a TV show called "My Mother the Car." [sarcasm]Real high concept[/sarcasm]: a man's late mother's soul ended up in a 1928 Porter. God forbid that Joss remembers that show from his toddler-hood.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/17/02 12:21:29 am

[Gatito Grande]

checkie, Amber's an amazing actor, but I don't really see her playing a car!



GG Course, if she did, it wouldn't "shaped like a p___s" anyway! Out

Edited by: Gatito Grande at: 9/17/02 9:47:05 pm

[mscheckmate]

ROTFL, GG. I have to come out as someone who loves cars of a certain shape. It's a trait I inherited from my Corvette-lusting mother.



In "MMTC," Ann Sothern provided the mother's voice. She communicated through the car's radio. I was very young at the time, but I remember having a major crush on her.



Yes, Amber could play anything. I just fervently hope that she doesn't have to play anyone on BtVS but a resurrected, Willow-loving Tara.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/17/02 12:39:47 am

[Hair Annoyed]

Well, back in May or June there was some speculation that Tara's ghost/spirit/soul might come back to inhabit a Tara-bot. At the time everyone said "No! Gross! I would hate that!" So, would we be willing to settle for that now?

[mscheckmate]

I could accept that only if there was a Pinnochio-type ending to that plot-device, in which the Tara-bot eventually became flesh-and-blood Tara.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/17/02 10:17:36 am

[tommo]

No. No robots, no talking cars, no soul in another body and no boinking in heaven.



The only real real Tara is really Tara. As played by Amber Benson. In the flesh. With Willow.



And I'm afraid that's all I'm going to accept right now.

----------
"Squish. Squish. Squish."

[mscheckmate]

From your mouth to Joss' ears, Ruth.



edited to add: not that Joss has a history of listening to anyone but his own twisted little muse.

Xander: "Tara, nice axing." Tara: "My first."

Edited by: mscheckmate at: 9/18/02 1:03:15 pm

[chelehel74]

Sheriden -

I happened to catch the Pilot of waking the dead on BBC america and must say it's a FANTASTIC show. It blows the American CSI out of the water. Much more interesting characters and development of the guest stars. my question to you is what season is airing overseas right now?



And which characters were you refering? Just a guest star or one of the regular characters getting a wild cliche plot?



sorry folks if this is off topic but the show rocks....

[BytrSuite]

Please keep the discussion confined to the cliché as it appears on Buffy.

————––
"There's a whole lot of singing that's never gonna be heard

Disappearing everyday without so much as a word somehow"

[kyraroc]

Episode one Lesbian Cliche scorecard:



Status of dead lesbian: Still dead

Status of evil lesbian: Recovering with help of a man

True redeeming features: None

Lame attempts at redeeming features: Evil lesbian has not slept with or been attracted to any men. Evil lesbian's recovery is being aided by (entirely unseen) female coven.

Appalling features: Dead lesbian goes completely unmentioned, despite being a relatively recently deceased friend, lover, or mother figure of practically every character on the show



Episode 1 Score: 3.5



0 = The miracle occurs

1 = Well, at least they're trying

2 = Well, at least they're pretending to try

3 = Same old same old

4 = As bad as it gets

5 = Even in my wildest nightmares, I never imagined this



The score is completely subjective. Commentary and feedback are welcome.



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy

[tommo]

No, I think you pretty much summed it up, kyraroc. Good call with the unseen coven; that gives total credence to the heterosexual man helping the Evil Lesbian to redeem herself. And hey, the thing that made her evil is now not evil, but a part of her. That's kind of confusing. But I guess in the cliche, all notions of rationality and logic are pretty much gone.

Edited by: xita  at: 9/30/02 7:04:48 pm

[missykittykatty]

Though I'm finding little to make me smile at the moment your comments did kyaroc. but also

[kyraroc]

OK . . . so episode 2 was pretty much exactly the same as episode 1 in terms of the Lesbian Cliche. I give it a 3.6 on the scale, down a tenth of a point since the dead lesbian goes unmentioned for a second episode in a row.



Episode 3, however . . .



OK, so the evil lesbian is horribly tortured for her crimes

except the demon torturting her is clearly evil and in the wrong

but is only able to do it because of a punishment she has inflicted on herself out of fear and guilt

implying, I guess, that she is torturing herself

except for the fact her fears are actually justified since her supposed friends are perfectly willing to believe she has committed murder again

although that they decide she's OK at the end

but only because she was a helpless and pathetic victim of torture

because she had to be punished for her crimes . . .



Meanwhile,

the dead lesbian is finally referred to

but not out loud

and only by the evil lesbian and not by any other character, no matter how close they were to her



Also

Spells cast by two women are once again reconfirmed as being a metaphor for lesbian sex

except when they aren't

and now it's being played for laughs

unless (god help us) it isn't

which might allow us to draw all kinds of conclusions about magic addiction if there were any consistency to the portrayal

but there isn't

except when they randomly feel like it



At the same time

the redemption of the evil lesbian by men is referred to several times in the episode (yellow crayon and de-evilling course)

except it's also made fun of

but still meant to be taken seriously



All of which means . . .



Um.



Quitre honestly, I think it means they don't have a clue. They don't know, they don't care, and they're not even trying. It's a muddled, incoherent mess in terms of the cliche because they couldn't give a damn either way.



Unfortunately, not giving a damn means the tendency is going to be to fall into the cliche more often than not, because that's the path of literary least resistance. And that's what's happened here. There's an occasional character-based undertow against the cliche caused by the fact that they want Willow to come across as a good, redeemed person, and sometimes it's going to come from herself rather than redemption by men because they're not trying to be horrible, they Just Don't Care. But in spite of that, we still in the end get:



the evil lesbian being tortured for her evil lesbian ways

all of her steps towards redemption having come through the intercession of men

the dead lesbian going almost entirely unacknowledged



So, I'm going to give this episode a 3.9



Since I think this was the episode meant to bring Willow back into the good-guy fold, this bodes ill for the future.



Comments?



--- KR

Lost in Ecstacy