The Deathwatch thread for ME shows

[darkmagicwillow]

I strongly disliked the higher Cordelia idea when it happened at the end of s3, but I think they did a good job of explaining it this year with Jasmine needing to hitch a ride with Cordelia in order to be born into the world and Skip being her agent. While the Jasmine plot has as many holes as the Glory one did on BtVS, that part makes sense with Cordelia being a pawn and not somebody who was really more than human except through a temporary magical elevation. However, possessed Cordy didn't work for me, either in terms of acting or story, and there was no closure in terms of human Cordy coming back to react to Jasmine's arrival and her participation in making it possible.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[kajo 2000]

From Stake Out:

Quote:

---

Vincent Kartheiser Departs Angel

22nd May 2003

(news source: www.eonline.com)



The actor who plays Connor in Angel will not be returning for the fifth season of Angel. The actor will guest star in one episode at the start of the season. The producers decided not to pick up the actor's contract for another season, as the character didn't have a place to fit into the new story arc.



Vincent is the second actor to leave the show, as producers also dropped Charisma Carpenter from the cast, she will not be returning for season 5. No reason has yet been given for the producers decision to drop Charisma Carpenter. Charisma Carpenter made her final appearance in late season 4 episode Inside Out, though the actress filmed some scenes for later episodes as the body of Cordelia. It is widely believed these two actors have been dropped to make way for the two additions to Angel's cast next season.



James Marsters is to join the cast of Angel next season, after signing a one season, 22 episode contract, however it remains to see how his character will be introduced into Angel following the events of the Buffy finale.



Also returning to Angel next season, is ex-Buffy star Mercedes McNab, who is reprising her role as Harmony in a multi episode deal, possibly to be added as a regular. Producers are apparently bringing her back to fill the void left by Cordy's departure.



Former Angel guest stars Stephanie Romanov and Christian Kane are also negotiating to return.

---

---------

"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

[darkmagicwillow]

It looks like they're solving their production cost increase from adding Spike by jettisoning current cast. I wonder when they'll realize that this is a mistake, that in the long run they're going to lose as many Angel viewers as they gain Buffy viewers if not more.



I'm disappointed, especially as I was starting to like Connor and I was actually quite impressed by VK's performance as Connor in the second half of the season. Harmony is no substitute for Cordelia, though I do find the idea of Lilah as a regular intriguing.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[sam7777]

Thanks Kajo! Another actor dumped for Spike. Now there is non one but DB left from the start of the show. I wonder how Alexis Denisof feels about JM having a higher billing than him. Still no talk of Aly doing a guest shot. It looks like they can only get minor Buffy characters like Harmony and prolly Andrew though no mention of Lenk. What void left by Cordy's departure. They fired Charisma to bring in a cheaper replacement so they could pay JM. I don't blame JM but I think that he would be better trying to do somehting else careerwise.



ETA: Thanks HIP! Dushku had no qualms about returning to series TV but she did have some qulams about doing the Buffy spin off.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/23/03 10:48:48 am

[helpful information perha]

well at least ED is doing well - and note to her it is NOT "just a tv show" - she exects tv to have impact/affact people





["People can turn you on in their living rooms, in their bedrooms, and follow you, watch your stories and be impacted and affected in the same way." ]





from sci fi wire

Dushku Answers Tru Calling



Eliza Dushku, star of Fox's upcoming supernatural TV series Tru Calling, told SCI FI Wire that her character is not a superhero like Faith, her role on UPN's Buffy the Vampire Slayer. "She's just this normal girl who's trying to help, but she's only human," Dushku said in an interview.



Dushku plays Tru Davies, a young woman working the graveyard shift at a morgue. She finds herself reliving the days in which her cadavers died. "It's like Groundhog Day," Dushku said. "Her day is starting over. That person dies at 10 o'clock that night, and now it's the day repeating itself. She has to find out who that person is, and she has X amount of hours to keep them from dying."



So far, Dushku has only shot the pilot, which was directed by film director Phillip Noyce, whom she considered "awesome." "He experiments with different shots and different angles and taught me a lot about looking at film, looking at a frame and filling up the foreground as well as the middle and the background and just trying different angles and lighting styles and emotions," Dushku said.



Though busy in her film career, Dushku had no qualms about returning to series TV. "A lot of actors are doing both [films and television], and I understand why, because television affects people just as much as film. People can turn you on in their living rooms, in their bedrooms, and follow you, watch your stories and be impacted and affected in the same way." Tru Calling will air Thursdays at 8 p.m. ET/PT, starting in the fall.

[sam7777]

Geez how many vampires do they plan to have on Angel? They have Angel, Spike and now Harmony. I can't help feeling that all this is bad news for Alexis Denisof. It must really hurt to be on a show for 3 years and be made second banana to a new guy. With Charisma gone, the second billing shuld have gone to AD. I wonder if this is why there has been no word about Aly. SMG has already said she wouldn't appear next season though she would do a final guest shot ala Angel on Buffy for the WB.



ETA: SMG's latest to Access Hollywood (posted by Kajo in the Actors after ME thread):

Quote:

---

Pat: Is this the end of Buffy or are you going to come back in some form?



Sarah Michelle: It's the end of Buffy as we know it. The show Buffy the Vampire Slayer is ending. Hopefully Angel will continue. Joss [Whedon] actually asked me if I would consider doing an Angel next year and of course I had every intention of doing something for the spin-off. I initially thought that was something that I could do, and it still may be something I am going to do. But it's just not going to be next season.



Pat: No big sweeps return?



Sarah Michelle: There is unfinished business between Buffy and Angel and we were lucky enough that The WB was kind enough to let us have David [Boreanz] for our last two episodes here. And that is certainly something that I would like to be able to do over there also.

---

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/23/03 3:01:24 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

Alexis Denisof got paid to roll around in bed with Stephanie Romanov, and in his off hours he goes home to...I can't find it in my heart to feel too sorry for him, Sam.



SMG says a lot of things, including that she *would* be avalible for guest-star shots, schedulues permitting. Please pass the salt...

Ben



"Any frontal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always

ready to defend their most precious possession."

[Sheridan]

Quote:

---

that in the long run they're going to lose as many Angel viewers as they gain Buffy viewers if not more.

---

i don't see that there could be a lot of extra viewers coming over from Buffy; the overlap must be close to 100% and those who don't either can't watch that night or have something else they prefer to Angel. That doesn't seem to leave a lot of extra fans. The likely scenario is zero bump from acquiring Spike and a big loss from cutting Cordy.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[darkmagicwillow]

I don't think the overlap has been that high since the first season of Angel. The stories have been disconnected since then and Angel's strongest demographic is different than Buffy's. Less than half of the posters I see on Angel boards appear to watch Buffy from the number of questions I saw about Willow and Faith's history, and none of the Angel or Buffy watchers I know in RL watch both shows. It seems weird to me too.



As much as I'd like to see Joss lose another show and how I'd love to see Salon write "How Spike ruined Angel" next year, I think Spike will pull in viewers from Buffy. Angel is more plot than character driven compared to Buffy and is stronger with men than women, so I'm not sure how hard losing Cordelia will hit them directly. Destroying their mythos and removing their reasons for doing what they do with W&H coopting Angel and the arrival of yet another vampire with a soul (or worse, a souled vampire who's become human like Angel was supposed to) will hurt them in the long run, as will the new balance of characters as there's simply no place for Spike to go unless they want him to replace Connor as Angel's "son."



I know mine isn't a popular view in this forum, but I think kittens shouldn't get their hopes up too high for Angel to tank immediately.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/23/03 5:16:30 pm

[sam7777]

Sheridan: Agreed on the likely scenario. The WB ordered 13 episodes of "One Tree Hill" and 5 episodes of the GG spin off pending a showrunner. I don't think the WB will hesitate to replace any show that is underperforming next season.



I miss Birds of Prey. It was the only WB show that I was watching. Of course I love Dina Meyer since she was in Starship troopers. For the short time that it was on, it generated quite a bit of only interest and quite a few sites:

www.birdsofpreyonline.com/links/

I wish that the WB had given BoP all the chances that Fox wasted on Fireshit.



I wonder what ever happened to the American version of Ultraviolet? I would love to have seen that vampire show come to the states.

www.btinternet.com/~scree...oletus.htm

Theyfilmed a pilot but it never went anywhere. Too bad.



Sigh this season was all about missed opportunities.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

[Sheridan]

darkmagicwillow I think you are grossly over estimating the chances for Angel. firstly the ratings are on the very edge as it is. losing Cordy will take a chunk out of that audience, even 0.1 or 0.2 loss of rating would be damaging. all the evidence from Buffy is that Spike is NOT a ratings booster. Add in the issue of the drop off in audience from Smallville and barring a miracle Angel will be in deep water early and often.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

---

I know mine isn't a popular view in this forum, but I think kittens shouldn't get their hopes up too high for Angel to tank immediately.

---

The key isn't whether Angel gets enough of a boost from Buffy fans. It's whether Angel gets enough of a boost from Smallville fans. Angel is now sitting on the WB's best piece of real estate. If it doesn't deliver, the WB will find another show that does.



Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that Angel would be cancelled immediately. It could be shuffled off into another dark corner of the schedule where Joss & co. could grumble about time slots some more. It could even be allowed to run out the season and have a big finish, like Dawson's Creek and Felicity got. So the story is by no means over. But the handwriting should start to appear on the wall very quickly.

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[darkmagicwillow]

Sheridan, the chances for Angel to do what? I'm not quite sure what you're claiming I've said there, but you seem to be talking about the possibilities of Angel being cancelled/renewed which I didn't address at all. In case you are interested in my opinion, I think it's highly unlikely for Angel to be renewed.



However, the evidence from Buffy is that Spike, despite how much that I or you dislike him, is a tremendously popular character. It's true that he's probably the most hated character as well, but that doesn't matter to the many fans who love him and who will follow him to another show. I can't grasp why they love him so much, but I've seen ample evidence to convince me that they do. With Angel coming off of it's best season ever, I think Angel's ratings will follow the pattern of Buffy s6, doing very well for the first episode(s) before falling off as Spike has the same effect on Angel as he did on Buffy, unless, as you suggest, they pull off a miracle and integrate him into the cast successfully.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Sheridan]

Quote:

---

However, the evidence from Buffy is that Spike, despite how much that I or you dislike him, is a tremendously popular character.

---

And where is your evidence for that? The Spike centred episode had poor ratings and the general decline in Buffy ratings goes hand in hand with the greater prominence of Spike. He was a decent supporting character over promoted. Integrating him into the cast would probably be a guarantee of disaster for Angel, and nowhere in my psot did I suggest otherwise.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[sam7777]

Angel had just come off it's lowest rated season ever: down 16.45% from it's series average. I think that the fact that the GG spin off was missing a show runner is more the reason it got on the fall schedule and not any qualities good or bad of the Angel show.



Sheridan: You are right about the drop off in audience from Smallville. Angel has done poorly in keeping the viewers from it's lead-in shows: ( from Futon Critic)

Angel's average lead out from Charmed: -14.83%

Angel average lead out from 7th Heaven: -40.65%

Angel average lead out from Buffy: -7.43%



Angel kept more of Dawson's Creek lead-out because Dawson had faded to the same low ratings and had more repeats than Angel to further lower it's lead-out rating. "Smallville" is a much higher rated show than Angel with 42% more viewers. Angel's highest rated season when it was on after Buffy had 4.06 million average viewers. That series high point is still 35% down from Smallville's 6.30 million viewers this season. Angel was considered to fail with the 14% lead-out loss from "Charmed" which prompted the move to Wednesday. If it can't pull better than that from "Smalliville", I think it will be in trouble.



Bob: You are right about the WB quickness to find a show that will perform. They will have 13 eps of "one Tree Hill" ready to go mid-season.



Frankly, I can't see them integrating Spike into the cast without alienating at least some of their long term fans. If the WB thinks that Spike is so popular, they will insist that he get more screen time pushing other characters into the background. The competition on Wednesday nights is pretty fierce:

ABC "The Bachelor"

CBS "The King of Queens" and "The Stones"

NBC “The West Wing”

FOX "Bernie Mac" and "Cedric the Entertainer"

UPN "Jake 2.0"

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/23/03 8:25:09 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

As I'm not emotionally vested in my conclusion and I'm becoming frustrated at having snippets of my posts being taken out of context and having opinions ascribed to me that I don't hold, there's no point for me to continue this argument.



We'll see what happens in the Fall. That's the only way to prove anything on this subject in any case.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/23/03 9:14:29 pm

[kajo 2000]

This was posted to TBC&S:

Quote:

---

This came in the mailing list of a Charisma site I belong to:



For those of you who have not heard, there are currently no plans for Charisma to return for Season Five of Angel.



Many of you have asked us to elaborate on the reasons behind the decision. Unfortunately, all we can do at the present time is confirm that Charisma will not be returning as a series regular. However, we plan on putting together a set of resources which should allow you to draw the proper inferences on your own.



Joss plans to make a statement in TVGuide on Tuesday. And Charisma is expected to have an interview in the upcoming SFX issue.



In the meantime, she has urged all of you to write and express your opinions, frustrations, and support to those who run the show and the network. Thanks to the generous and very supportive folk at Stranger-Things.net, we have a large list of addresses, phone numbers, fax numbers and email addresses for you to use.



But remember, as a representative of Charisma's fan base, please try to be respectful while still being able to make your point.



Take care!

www.charisma-carpenter.com

---

---------

"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

Edited by: kajo 2000 at: 5/24/03 12:07:30 pm

[Ben Varkentine]

DarkMagicWillow, I agree that Spike is a popular character--the WB didn't insist they bring him over for nothing. What I think is going to be interesting in terms of the next season of Angel is seeing how much of that popularity is balanced by those who have grown to hate him.



Will they gain more fans than they lose? I'm still not convinced there are that many Spike fans who weren't watching Angel already and will suddenly appear in the new year. Relatively speaking, there just aren't that many Buffy/Angel/Firefly/ME fans to go around in the country.



There's also people like me to contend with. Those who had given up on Buffy completely but still had hopes for Angel, and are dismayed to hear that some of the worst aspects of Buffy's last two seasons are being dropped in.



Your prediction that Angel's ratings will follow the pattern of Buffy's S6, a brief ratings "Spike"--heh heh--followed by a plummet to the depths of the ocean, seems to me accurate.

Ben



"Any frontal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always

ready to defend their most precious possession."

[sam7777]

Thanks Kajo! Looks like ME has managed to alienate another set of their fans. That appears to be their remaining talent IMHO. It's quite possible that Charisma fans aren't very numerous but people said the same about the Kittens and we still got out our point on the lesbian cliche.

Quote:

---

However, we plan on putting together a set of resources which should allow you to draw the proper inferences on your own.

---

Too true. The Charisma fans are right to be skeptical about any statement Joss makes. They have learned from the Kitten experience IMHO. ME lied about Tara saying she was "essential" and "not going anywhere". Joss and ME have continually misrepresented why Amber turned down their offer for season severed. It shows the sad state of ME's PR that Joss has to make a statement about Charisma's status to defray the rumor that she was fired due to being pregnant. The press may talk about how "feminist" Joss is but apparently enough people are ready to believe Joss would do such a mysogynist act that Joss is compelled to respond.



Honestly if I was in charge of ME's PR, I wouldn't let the writers and producers make remarks outside of a press release that was checked beforehand with no BB, Succlub etc. I'd also gag Marti Noxon and not in the fun way. This comes on the tail end of the bother over Tim MInear's remarks at the Succlub that caused such a firestorm among Angel fans that he had to explain his comments at one of the Angel boards (an Angel's Soul?). From what I can see in the ratings from Futon critic and from comment in end of Buffy articles, ME shows have a small cult following. I really don't understand why they keep sticking their foot into their mouths. This lot doesn't need an enemy.



To add to my info on lead-out ratings, ME's highest rated show of recent memory was Firefly with 4.48 milion viewers. Looking at the number from Futon Critic:



smallville 6.30 million, 3.70/5.61 ave nat'l

firefly 4.48 million (-29% from sm), 2.88/5.20 ave nat'l (-22%)

angel 3.65 million (-42% from sm), 2.33/3.42 ave nat'l (-37%)



Even if Angel gets Firefly number is will lose more than 20% of Smallville's lead-in. If the WB wasn't happy with 14% out of "Charmed", it's possible they will not be satisfied with 20% or more lead out loss. In any case, I don't think that there will be a deathwatch for Angel here like there was for Buffy since Angel doesn't generate the same passions IMHO. I certainly don't think of Angel one way or another not having watched it all this season or much last season. I'd like to see ME off the air but don't care about Angel per se.



Still this season has succeed beyong even my anti-ME dreams. I never thought that either Buffy or Angels ratings would sink to a 2.2 national, that Angel would be on the fence for a second season with it's lowest ratings ever, that Firefly would be cancelled, that Buffy would be cancelled without another spin off, that the cartoon and Ripper would be put on permanent hold and that their despoiling of Tara's memory would be foiled by Amber the goddess' refusal. This has been a fun season for me but for Mutant Enemy not so much IMHO.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

Edited by: sam7777  at: 5/24/03 1:52:52 pm

[Sheridan]

That positing from the website suggests this could turn into the Angel equivalent of Tara's death, with all the implications for ratings and survival that brings.

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

[ready4scully]

Didn't Joss say at one point during the season or before the season 4 premiere that Charisma/Cordelia was the heart of 'Angel'? Hmm, something in my mind has an inkling of this.



My opinion? Angel will get it's last hurrah next season. With Joss back in full swing (or so he says) I expect the characters to become more messed up than they already are...and I enjoyed 'Angel' this season...much more than 'Buffy.'



I'll stick to watching Smallville, Everwood (which I can't reccommend enough) and Gilmore Girls...these shows have heart, and respect the integrity of their story and its characters. Joss is like the John Edwards on South Park, screaming "goddammit, I'm special."



Justin

"Atticus, he was real nice..."

"Most people are, Scout, when you finally see them." ~To Kill A Mockingbird

[Sela]

"Angel" was the only ME show I watched this past year, and I have to say that while it shone in comparison to "Buffy," it was hardly what I call a "stellar" show. What it lacked was overall consistency and faithfulness to the characters. Cordelia was this disgusting pedophiliac predator; Connor was a whiney little slug; Fred was a bumbling syncophant; Gunn was a pea-brained muscle-head; Wesley was the degenerate black sheep; and Angel was the holier-than-thou, overly-brooding, wah-wah-wah souled-out pathetic loser vamp without a pair of cojones to help him through his morbid existence. This is hardly the stuff television history is made of. Yet it was tolerable in the face of the humiliating story arcs and character assassinations "Buffy" had to offer. But now that they've axed Cordelia in favor of nipple-happy Spike, I have to say that I am so reviled by ME, so absolutely disgusted by their "vision" that I patently refuse to watch that show and I refuse to buy into their "new direction" misdirection, so much so that I am compelled to write a flurry of protest letters to the WB, ME, and the bloody New York Times if that's what it takes to make people wake up and smell the death of of Joss Whedon's career. Cordy was an essential part of "Angel." And to dismiss her so callously is a direct attack on the faithful viewers of the show. Joss is really hoping to alienate the world with this brand new version of his fledgling little show. And fine, I hope he really feels the loss. 'Cause it's gonna take a whole hell of a lot more than a middle-aged, bleached, over-processed blonde-haired, rosy-nippled, re-souled, rapist-in-training to turn the show around. Gah! And that's because I used to be a Spike fan! What a steaming pile of horse crap this show has become! I guess now people will truly know what it feels to be on the receiving end of Joss Whedon's almighty vision. Blech! I wash my hands of all of this filth!



--Sela

[darkmagicwillow]

Ben, I feel the same about Angel. I'd given up on watching Buffy a while ago, but Angel was still good. Now I'm dismayed about Spike's arrival and Joss turning his focus towards the show.



It's not going to turn out well, though I do get this amusing image in my head of Buffy s6 reprised with Spike playing the part of depressed Buffy, finding a reason to live in his "relationship" with the disgusting, evil lawyer Angel. Hmmm, somehow I don't think it's going to be that funny.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[Ben Varkentine]

I still like the idea that the lawyers give Angel a boat...and he uses Spike as the anchor. Now, *that*'s a metaphor.

Ben



"Any frontal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always

ready to defend their most precious possession."

[scifiacid]

Quote:

---

And where is your evidence for that? The Spike centered episode had poor ratings and the general decline in Buffy ratings goes hand in hand with the greater prominence of Spike.

---

Actually, really don’t think you can use the ratings dip as evidence that Spike is the cause of said dips, which is the main stay argument often used on this board. What I mean is, you can very well look at the ratings dip in a very different manner.



When Spike centric episodes are on I don’t watch them. A lot of people here don’t watch them, as well as a lot of Xander, Willow, Buffy fans. Why should I/We, we care little for Spike, and with no Willow, why bother… etc. So, you could just as easily equate the drop in rating points when there is a Spike episode to the loss of viewers who are fans of other characters. Not because it’s a Spike episode.



And I think that is probably how ME did spin it and how the Network is looking at it. When a Spike episode airs the ratings go down ONLY a point or so. Well, what does that say, when Spike is the center of a story they only loose a few viewers. To them, that means those who are left watching ARE Spike fans. Those who left because they didn’t want to watch a Spike episode are very few.



I’m just saying that to use a ratings drop to exclusively say that it’s Spikes fault, is well, not really a valid argument. No, it is a valid argument, but you can just as easily, as I’ve said above, argue it in the other direction. I just don’t think you can use Spike as an excuse for the ratings drop. Or to show that is why the show has gone downhill. Or even that Angel is not going to do any better because of Spike. I think it very well might. Whatever fans where left during Spike episodes, they are probably going to watch Angel.



I haven’t liked Spike since mid-Season 4, I don’t watch Spike episodes, but those who are still watching do like Spike and Buffy’s ratings can just as easily be explained that way because of it.



Just tossing out another perspective.

Adrienne

[Ben Varkentine]

I think arguing that any one factor was responsible for the ratings drop is misguided. It wasn't just the increased focus on Spike, the death of Tara, or any other single thing as much as the depressing tone of season six as a whole. To say nothing of the dangling plot lines, logic holes, and generally lazy, bad writing of season seven.



That's why I never really bought the whole "and if they just brought Tara back, everything would be all right again" argument. As much as I liked Tara, I don't think I would have liked to watch her in season seven. Thinking about what happened to Willow & the others I used to care about...(shudder). At least Tara was spared that...

Ben



"Any frontal attack on ignorance is bound to fail because the masses are always

ready to defend their most precious possession."

[BBOvenGuy]

Quote:

---

Didn't Joss say at one point during the season or before the season 4 premiere that Charisma/Cordelia was the heart of 'Angel'? Hmm, something in my mind has an inkling of this.

---

ready4scully, I could have sworn that, too. It's why I decided not to watch Angel this past season. But so far all I've been able to come up with in the archives is this quote from SciFi Wire:

Quote:

---

I just heard people saying, 'Is she coming back?' I've heard every vicious rumor about everybody, and I lend them all very little credence. She is coming back. She's a part of the show. She's an essential part of the show.

---

That does have a lot in common with the infamous Tara quote:

Quote:

---

I have no plans to send Tara anywhere ... even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show.

---

But I was sure I'd seen something even more like it. Maybe our other archive searchers will have better luck than I did.

"The first task of anyone, lest you get canceled, is to entertain people, because they ain't there for message." - Dick Wolf

[Munchkin]

Try not to sweat it, Bob. What matters in this instance isn't so much that I (among other Kittens) believe you, but that I definitely don't believe Mutant Enema. So safe to say, your honest guesses are more reliable than their alleged "facts". And that's good enough for me.

_______



Dave C.

Edited by: Munchkin at: 5/26/03 5:24:04 pm

[kajo 2000]

From TV Guide Online:

Quote:

---

Angel Mystery: Will Cordy Wake Up?

Tuesday, May 27th 2003

by Michael Ausiello



Now that Angelus and Co. have assumed control of Wolfram & Hart on Angel, we suggest they use their new seat of power to solve the show's biggest mystery: What the heck happened to Charisma Carpenter and her alter ego Cordelia? Carpenter — a former Buffy cast member who, like David Boreanaz, has been with the show since its inception — went off to have a baby last season and hasn't been heard from since. (Cordy remains in a coma on the show.) Making matters more murky, a new Angel cast list makes no mention of the actress. The WB and 20th Century Fox have been cagey about the omission, and numerous attempts to make contact with Carpenter's agent have proven unsuccessful. So, what's a journalist to do? Go straight to the big boss himself, Joss Whedon.



TV Guide Online: Why was Charisma's name removed from next season's cast list?



Joss Whedon: Mainly because we felt like we had taken that story — just like Buffy for seven years — about as far as it could go. The Angel/Cordelia [love story] had gone pretty much as far as we wanted to take it. Their romance was definitely not a popular move on our part, and I think with most fans. It just seemed like it was time because we were revamping the show, and then paring it down... it just seemed like a good time for certain people to move on. Not completely, obviously. I'm hoping that we'll get Charisma to do some episodes as Cordelia sometime during the year. She's a new mother, so, like Sarah [Michelle Gellar], I'm waiting to hear what her schedule is like. But it just seemed creatively like... I once said that I finally got to tell the story of Buffy that I tried to tell in the movie, and I did it with Cordelia. Which was the story of someone who was completely ditzy and self-involved becoming kind of heroic. But the way the series was different from the movie was that I didn't know where you go from there. So, I felt like we spent seven years playing that very arc, and it had played. Like Buffy itself, it's time to look at something new.



TVGO: Isn't that a disservice to fans who invested all those years in the character and her redemption? It seems an odd thing to do to the show's leading lady.



Whedon: That's a fluctuating concept, the leading lady thing. And it is a little odd. Some choices are ultimately kind of controversial about who stays and who goes and who we focus on. But obviously, we had to have her out of a bunch of episodes toward the end of the year because she was having a baby... so what we had [leading] up to it wasn't a dynamic I wanted to play out that much. The fact is, this is not the end — unless Charisma herself says, "You know what? I don't feel like doing any recurring episodes." But when you have an increasingly large ensemble week-by-week, and you come in in your [fifth] year kind of having to revamp the show and trim the budget and also think creatively, "How am I going to service all of these people?," sometimes the people who have been around the longest, you've done the most with them.



TVGO: Some are speculating that she was a casualty of James Marsters's cross over as Spike next season. Like, there wasn't enough money in the budget to pay for them both, so she got the boot.



Whedon: That's a hell of a thing to lay on James. It was a creative decision that we made before Spike came over to the show, and like I said, I don't intend to leave Cordelia in a coma for the rest of the Buffyverse. But the creative decision to have the character step down happened long before negotiations with James [started]. It should not be laid at his feet.



TVGO: Were things left on good terms with Charisma?



Whedon: Yeah, but that's also stuff between us and not stuff that I would talk about in an interview.

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From charisma-carpenter.com:

Quote:

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Taken from F4F:

www.e4fans.net/forums4fans/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000803&p=8



Author: News-Guru

Author Host/IP: mail.breweroil.com / 207.108.248.130

Subject: Charisma talks briefly about her plans (possible spoilers)



This was taken while Charisma Carpenter was attending a function benefiting the AIDS society in L.A. this past Friday.



"I know there are numerous rumors going around regarding my status on the show, and quite honestly, I don't know what the writers and producers have planned for me. I do know that Joss told me he has no plans for killing my character off, unless he decides to do it at the last minute. So, I'm guessing that I will go on to next season and finish out my contract, that is as long as David (Boreanaz) also finishes out his contract. I would like to do other things in my life, and now with a child on the way it makes it even more important. I still love my job and the people I work with, so I have no plans of leaving the show unless they make me."

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"I want to be Byron... because I want to date young boys." Amber Benson

Edited by: kajo 2000 at: 5/27/03 7:56:39 am

[gspiggott]

So the great feminist expert has trouble with that leading lady concept .Meanwhile they can call off the romance between Angel and Cordy because it's unpopular with the fans, but we have to hear to hear about JFK and her amazing tongue stud?I love the way he demurely hints that there are things about Charisma that he can't bring himself to discuss. I'm glad Angel didn't get canned this season because I want a bigger failure in a perfect time slot where ME has no excuses.I hope Charisma lets him have it with both barrels.