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New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

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New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:27 am

Okay, I tried posting the revised version on the main board, but apparently the mods found it unacceptable, so here it is back in this thread.



Version #2 is now posted. There are several changes, as always seems to happen when I do these things. Those of you who commented on version #1 may even notice your contributions.








Ten Ways That Charmed is Better Than Buffy



By bbovenguy@yahoo.com">Robert A. Black





This week marks a very special occasion for a long-running TV show. You know the one I mean – that one with the red-haired witch who dresses funny but is a quick study in the magical arts?



Of course I’m talking about the WB’s Charmed, which reaches its landmark 100th episode this Sunday. Which show did you think I was talking about?



Oh, right. Buffy.



If you’d come to me two years ago and told me that I’d ever be writing about how much better Charmed is than Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I’d probably have laughed in your face. If you’d come to me one year ago, I might not have laughed, but I still wouldn’t have believed you. I was there when Buffy first premiered. I was a fan of the show and of the creative team behind it for years. Charmed was this other show that I always described as “shamelessly goofy” – I still describe that way, in fact. But Charmed has always played for real when it mattered, and as the years have gone by and the episodes of both Charmed and Buffy have accumulated, I now believe that Charmed has emerged as the better show.



Why do I say that? Here are ten good reasons why:





1) Charmed is consistent with its witchcraft – I don’t know much about the real religion of Wicca, but I’m told that at least one expert on the subject has praised the way Wicca and magic are portrayed on Charmed. Even to my untrained eye, it looks like the people at Charmed have done their homework. The Charmed Ones’ powers follow a specific set of rules. They grow and develop along fairly logical lines. And this magical paradigm has remained more or less consistent through the course of the series.



Meanwhile, on Buffy it’s been obvious for years that when it comes to magic, the show is making everything up as it goes. Simply look at the way Willow’s powers have been treated – in Season 4 magic was a metaphor for her lesbian relationship with Tara, but by Season 6 it had instead become a blatant symbol for drug addiction. At the beginning of Season 7, Willow’s magic had changed again. It had become “a part of her,” whatever that was supposed to mean. But since the start of the season, her magic has continued to change, apparently at the whims of the show’s writing staff. There’s no telling what it will be like next.



2) On Charmed, people of color survive longer than one season – There have been very few recurring African-American characters on Buffy, and most of them have died within a few episodes. At this point, the survival record goes to Season 4’s Initiative member Forrest Gates, who was killed in his tenth episode and then had his reanimated body blown up in his eleventh episode. Giles’s girlfriend Olivia made it out of Sunnydale alive, but she only appeared in three episodes – and one of those was in a dream sequence. And as for characters who were Latino or Asian or some other ethnic minority in America, forget it. There have barely been any at all, and none have remained on the show for more than an episode or two.



On the other hand, African-American character Darryl Morris first appeared in the opening scenes of the Charmed pilot, and he’s still there one hundred episodes later. Paige’s boss was also African-American, and at the time Paige quit her job he was still alive and well. Other people of color have come and gone on the show from time to time – some have been evil and some have died, but no more often than that’s been true of white characters.



3) On Charmed, Good has a role to play – Joss Whedon recently described the main character of his short-lived series Firefly this way: “He's a guy who looks into the void and sees nothing but the void -- and says there is no moral structure, there is no help, no one's coming, no one gets it, I have to do it.” This same attitude has also crept into the Buffy universe over the years. In the beginning of the series, it was established that a Slayer like Buffy has a Watcher – a whole Council of Watchers, actually – to help her in her fight against evil. But in later years the Council has been inexplicably absent, and in fact now they’ve been destroyed. But is this realistic? In Season 6, Giles simply decided to leave, and instead of sending a replacement the Council apparently thought it best to let Buffy bumble around on her own until her incompetence brought the world to the brink of destruction. Granted, Buffy probably wouldn’t have accepted a new Watcher, but couldn’t we have seen the resulting conflict on the show? Was it really better to watch Buffy turn into an aimless antihero walking around in a fog?



Meanwhile, on Charmed the forces of Good are always there and always available to provide help and guidance. Sometimes they come off looking like a bunch of slackers – how many times has Leo gone to “check with the Elders” and come back with useless information? – but the fact remains that they’re there. The Charmed Ones have a place in the grand scheme of things. They’re a part of a battle that’s much larger than they are, the struggle between the forces of Good and Evil. They’ve remained free of the conceited notion that the entire battle begins and ends with themselves.



4) On Charmed, death is real – It’s funny to say that about a show where all three of the main characters die and come back on a regular basis, but it’s true. Like everything else on the show, there’s the kind of character death where they’re just kidding and the kind of character death where they’re playing for real. When Prue died at the end of Season 3, it mattered. The characters actually grieved for an extended time. Even now, a season and a half later, there are still references to missing her, and Paige still feels the weight of having to fill her shoes. Likewise, there are still references to the Charmed Ones feeling the losses of their various parents, even though those events took place many years in the past.



Compare that to the Buffy characters who have died. Jenny Calendar was brought back only to manipulate Giles and torture Angel. Joyce only appears when Buffy is psychotic or when Buffy and Dawn need to be manipulated. Hardly anyone has even mentioned Tara’s name since her death, but plans were in the works to have her come back – so that she could torture Willow. Only Amber Benson’s refusal to play the role prevented such a scene from being filmed. The pattern on Buffy is clear - unless it’s time to inflict pain, dead characters don’t exist. It’s as if they were never there.



5) On Charmed, heroes have lives, too – All four of the Charmed Ones have had real lives that we’ve been able to see. Piper owns a nightclub, and before that she was a chef. Phoebe finished college and is now an advice columnist. Prue was an art appraiser and a photographer. Paige was a social worker before she gave it up to be a witch full-time – but even that change is something that’s been explored over multiple episodes. On Buffy, ever since the characters left school it’s been as if they existed in a vacuum. We see the people and places of Sunnydale, but we don’t really know much about them, because we rarely see any kind of meaningful interaction between the main characters and their surroundings. It’s as if all of Sunnydale is nothing but a painted backdrop to keep the audience from seeing the technical equipment backstage.



6) On Charmed, we know who the heroes are fighting for – Most of the time, the Charmed Ones are called to protect one or more “innocents,” and we in the audience get to know these people in the course of an episode. We get to see how the innocents are threatened, and why it’s important to save them. We get to see how the Charmed Ones help these people with their lives. When an innocent does end up dying, the Charmed Ones take the loss hard – it’s always one of the character deaths that the show plays for real. On the other hand, we rarely get to know anything about the people Buffy and her friends save. They’re almost always generic characters that we see for no more than a couple of minutes – just more of the painted backdrop that is Sunnydale. It’s interesting to note that two of the exceptions – two “innocents” that we got to know in greater detail – were not so innocent after all. In fact, they came back to the show as Buffy’s enemies – Warren and Jonathan.



7) On Charmed, relationships can succeed, or at least can end well – On Buffy it’s a well-known fact that all romantic relationships end badly. Joss Whedon’s explanation is that if the characters are happy the story will get boring. But that’s not the case on Charmed. Piper and Leo have been together since the first season. The fact that they’ve gotten married hasn’t made their relationship boring – it simply means that they now have different challenges to face than they did when they were dating. As for other relationships, it’s true that Prue’s relationship with Andy ended with Andy’s death, but even so they were given an affirming final goodbye scene – and Andy never came back to torture Prue. And then there’s Phoebe and Cole – a relationship that’s dysfunctional, but Phoebe knows it’s dysfunctional and has been trying to move beyond it. How well she succeeds is something we’ll find out very shortly.



8) On Charmed, morality counts – Let’s take a closer look at the relationship between Phoebe and Cole, and compare it to a parallel relationship on Buffy, the one between Buffy and Spike. Cole is very much a tragic figure. No matter how much he tries to love Phoebe, the fact remains that he belongs to the forces of evil and Phoebe belongs to the forces of good. It gives him a mindset that’s incompatible with the Wiccan rules and ways that Phoebe lives by, and it causes him to do things that only drive Phoebe away. With Buffy and Spike, on the other hand, it’s hard to tell who’s the good guy and who’s the bad guy, who’s in love and who’s merely indulging selfish passions, who’s using the other and who’s being selfless. And the reason it’s so hard to tell is because there’s simply no answer to be found. Without a moral compass, anyone can be anything at any given time, with no consistency or reason to them. Even the Buffy producers have disagreed about what the relationship really means, and that leaves most viewers seeing nothing but a confused mess.



9) On Charmed, characters remain true to themselves – Continuing with the relationship between Phoebe and Cole, let’s examine another aspect of the story, Phoebe’s temptation to join the dark side. Phoebe makes her decision to be with Cole as Phoebe. She does it because she loves Cole, and she honestly believes that her love is capable of bridging the gap between them. As a result, she ends up trying to fulfill her role as a Charmed One fighting demons while at the same time refusing to vanquish those demons because they work for her husband. Since morality counts on Charmed, both Good Leo and Evil Cole tell her she has to choose sides, and she ends up choosing Good because that’s who she is.



Compare that to another witch tempted to the dark side, Willow in Season 6 of Buffy. First it looks like Willow is lured by the temptations of the power she wields. Then suddenly that power becomes a transparent symbol for addictive drugs. When Willow goes off the deep end and assumes her dark magic persona, is she willingly indulging in dark powers or is she just a junkie unable to control an addiction? Is she responsible for her actions or not? Just as with the Buffy/Spike relationship, not even Buffy’s producers were able to answer that question with any clarity. Now in Season 7, the relationship between Willow and her magic – and the character of Willow herself, actually – is something that changes from week to week according to the writing team’s whims.



10) The richer texture of Charmed provides more story opportunities – One of the big problems that Buffy has suffered from is a lack of credible villains for Buffy to fight. Once she defeated a god in Season 5, what was left for her to do? On the other hand, last season on Charmed, the Charmed Ones defeated “the Source of all Evil” not once, but three times, and yet ended the season by facing off against a completely different and very human foe.



What makes the difference? Buffy apparently knows how to tell only one story. The “Big Bad” of the year emerges and Buffy faces off against it in steadily more intense battles until the season-ending near-apocalypse leads to its defeat. The only time they didn’t try that formula was in Season 6, which has been widely branded a disaster, and even then they still couldn’t do without the season-ending near-apocalypse.



Because the Charmed Ones have more real lives, with more real relationships in a more real setting, protecting the lives of more real “innocents,” there are more opportunities for interesting stories. The Charmed Ones may be able to handle “the Source of all Evil,” but can they handle childbirth? They may be able to deal with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, but can they deal with a barrage of lawsuits? The richer texture means the audience is left wondering what will come next, instead of simply trying to recognize the latest version of the same old plot elements plugged into the same old formula.





Underlying these ten points, and the difference between Buffy and Charmed overall, I think, is that Charmed has never forgotten that it’s a TV show. In order for a TV show to survive in the long run, there has to be a mixture of light and dark, comic and serious. A show needs to keep developing its characters and its surroundings, bringing in new ideas, new settings, and different challenges. Charmed has done that. Buffy has not. Especially in the last two or three years, Buffy has seemed to get smaller, shrinking down around the core characters and their drawn-out internal problems while everything around them fades into a murky background. It’s as if the show is being boiled down until only the Joss Whedon message – “there is no moral structure, there is no help, no one's coming, no one gets it, I have to do it” – is all that remains. And as Buffy has diminished, Charmed has overtaken it, so that in the end the “shamelessly goofy” show is the one that has prevailed.



So here’s to Charmed on its 100th episode. May their second 100 episodes be more successful than Buffy’s have been.





Robert A. Black was on the writing staff of Nickelodeon’s You Can’t Do That On Television in the 80s, and has won multiple online awards for his Buffy fan fiction. His first book, a children’s historical novel, will be published later in 2003.

"If you are going to give a new message to the world, you will do so without being conscious of it yourself. If you set out to do it consciously, you will fail because you will be trying to pose; and the man who poses is insincere." - Charles V. Stanford

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 1/18/03 9:25:21 am
BBOvenGuy
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby jixer » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:41 am

Hello Kittens-



Charmed better than Buffy? And I find myself nodding? Excuse me, I have to go make sure the stars are turning the correct way in the heavens above and that the moon still travels east to west. Very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you.





Jixer

jixer
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby gspiggott » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:07 am

An Aaron Spelling production better than all the accumulated wisdom of Wesleyan's film school? You make a very convincing case. I wish you would make ME a gift of your essays , it's the road map that tells tells them how they got so lost.

gspiggott
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby dekalog » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:35 am

I've never watched Charmed, but my best friend's boyfriend is really into it - perhaps I should give it a try. Reason 10 was excellent Bob (they all were) I think unconsciously this aspect has always bothered me, so when I was reading it - I kinda had to slap my forehead and go 'duh' - that's exactly it - isn't it? This is why I was always thinking and making up different aspects to the characters (especially two certain witches ;) )

I was filling out all the glaring blanks, and trying to make it more interesting because of the sameness of the big bad.



Which leads me to a thought I've always had, but now I believe true. The stories on Pens are for the most part better put together than ANY Joss show. The explore the depth of the characters - story = journey of self, and therefore emphasis not on plot but on character. I've always thought that my love of all things W & T only came to full development AFTER coming here, and especially reading some of the most amazing fics here on the board.



So after that realization - my thanks once again - to Bob, always with the amazing essays, xita - creator of my daily web visit, and every one who has written a fic, and of course A & A. It is nice to have somewhere to go to read tales of a wonderful, intriging couple - who have become inspirational to people like me who aren't so good at the long-term relationship thing.

dekalog
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby tkheaven » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:54 am

Bob, it couldn't have been put together any better than you did. I agree with you on every aspect. I look forward to watching Charmed more so than Buffy and sometimes even Angel. The one thing I've always enjoyed about Charmed is the fact that they keep the character storylines consistant and more realistic in terms of how people react to certain situations, how they would try deal. Also, the fact that we see a little more of each character; Phoebe's work life, Piper's club, Paige's further study of the magiks and even more personal with boyfriends/husbands and all other characters around them. It gives for a more creative story each episode, and hey, even original and clever ones - not some recycled ideas that constantly come up.

And that's from just recently catching up with the show this past year.



:clap Well written

Tk's new and improved "GrrArgg"...Tk's Heaven


"I've become really protective of her. I want to make sure if Tara comes back, it's for good reason." -Amber Benson
Tara ate her, devoured her from beneath. -The Edge of Silence giving new meaning to this season's catch phrase.
"Got it: that's a 'yes' to petals; a 'no' to pricks. I should remember that more often." -On Second Thought

tkheaven
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby darkmagicwillow » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:21 am

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with an essay like this either. Charmed has never had the focus on the primary story that I want in a show, instead frequently engaging in often pointless but engaging diversions. Yet Charmed has improved it's story focus with the addition of Cole in recent seasons, and added an interesting long term moral dilemma with his relationship with Phoebe.



On the other hand, Buffy has been lost since high school let out. I was able to forgive season 4 because it was a big transition and they'd lost much of their cast, breaking apart all of their character relationships, especially the romantic ones with the loss of Angel, Cordelia, and Oz, but also parenthood with the disassociation of Giles and Joyce from the Scoobies, and even friendship among the core Scoobies. As I'm writing this, I realize that this feels very similar to season 6 in that sense.



But season 4 was also about building new relationships, most importantly WIllow with Tara, but also Buffy with Riley, and there were some great episodes like Hush and NMR that helped the season shine despite its lackluster villain. Seasons 6 and 7 haven't had either of those redeeming factors. The few good season 6 episodes happened before they started breaking things, and they haven't even tried to rebuild anything.









--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby helpful information perha » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:48 am

well stated BBOG - hope you post it to TWoP

helpful information perha
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby sam7777 » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:06 am

Great essay Bob. I especially like what you say about relationships. Buffy is so one note on the misery that it's becoming dull. There are interesting challenges and dramatic possibilities to be faced in long term relationships that ME has never pursued. This is part of the reason season 6 was so falt for me. They were acting like the stupid tennagers that they weren't when they were teenagers. Also agreed on the Willow addiction thing. They could have done something about power but then that would have required some kind of moral statment that they seem incapable of now.

_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby sparrow » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:45 am

I've watched Charmed from it's beginning and think it's incredible. Have to agree with you Bob.





And yet, I just can't seem to care
What no hug

sparrow
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby Ben Varkentine » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:52 am

Very good piece, Bob. The only thing you might want to look at is the bit about the Watcher's Council not sending another watcher when Giles left. By that time in the rocky relationship between Buffy & the Council, she'd established quite definitively that she would never accept authority from anybody else.



Just thought I'd mention it because it's the kind of the thing the diehards are going to bring up...





Ben Varkentine



Read my film, music and book reviews at



http://www.ink19.com (new) & http://www.popmatters.com (archival)

Ben Varkentine
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby BBOvenGuy » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:48 pm

Quote:
By that time in the rocky relationship between Buffy & the Council, she'd established quite definitively that she would never accept authority from anybody else.



Just thought I'd mention it because it's the kind of the thing the diehards are going to bring up...




You're right, they will bring that up - but my response is to ask why couldn't we have seen that happening. Why couldn't we have seen the Council try to send someone and seen the resulting conflict? I'll have to put that in.



I have a ton of stuff to do today - for one thing, I'm sending the proofs of my book back to the publisher now that I've gone through them :grin - but tonight I should be able to do a revised version. If it's all right with the mods, I'll put it on the main board, and then we can go to TWOP and other places.

"If you are going to give a new message to the world, you will do so without being conscious of it yourself. If you set out to do it consciously, you will fail because you will be trying to pose; and the man who poses is insincere." - Charles V. Stanford

BBOvenGuy
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby WebWarlock » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:00 pm

Bob,



A very good essay. You allways seem to have "just one more" in you! ;)



A couple of points. You compared the magic addiction to crack. For my money the comparison was closer to heroin. Willow even described herself as a "junkie" (the WORST line in BtVS ever in my opinion).



Another point to back up your Wicca comparisons.



Raymond Buckland, noted Wicca and author of many book on the craft, had quite a bit of praise for "Charmed" in his book*. His ONLY mention of Buffy was about Willow. He praised the character, but "condemned" the magic system as "Hollywood Witchcraft".



Now from the point of view of someone who has now been paid to go over Buffy's magic system in detail, there are a lot of damn holes in it. It is obvious that magic in the buffy-verse is used only when they have no other idea. Plus they are not very consistant anymore. EG. Black eyes. This used to mean only "dark magic", now it seems that Willow goes all black eyed whenever it suits the whims of the writers.



Of course there is the whole "dark magics" vs. "light magics" deal which does not even exsist in Wicca.



This should also be shared with various "Charmed" related boards, they would enjoy it.



Warlock



*Buckland, Raymond. (2002). The Witch Book. Visible Ink Press: Detroit. ISBN 1-57859-114-7

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks


"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read." - Frank Zappa

WebWarlock
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby vamp xander » Fri Jan 17, 2003 2:52 pm

Bravo Bob bravo!!! yeah an Aaron spelling show is better than what Joss creates because Aaron knows to give his audience what they want which explains his long string of hits and living in his ? story mansion. Aaron "give your audience what they want" Joss " don't give your audience what they want but what they need"

"There will be no touching of the pendant" Halfrek

vamp xander
 


Re: New Essay - "10 Ways that Charmed is better than Bu

Postby superherofan » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:46 pm

Great essay, and ironically one I would have probably laughed at a few years ago. Oh, how times have changed when I've watched a ton of "Charmed" reruns on TNT, and my new Buffy Season Three DVDs have remained unwatched.



I'd like to add/expand another point to the Charmed vs. Buffy comparison is how they treat the "innocents". A major part of the Charmed Ones duties is to protect the innocent, and the audience sees how evil affects their lives and the importance in helping them. On both "Buffy", the main character's world has become so insular that we hardly if ever see any emotional ramifications of the "Big Bad" on other characters' lives. On "Charmed", the emphasis is "It's our duty to protect these people from evil", while on "Buffy", the emphasis seems to be "It's our duty (most of the time) to kill the bad guys".



... that is, unless you're f***ing him.

Edited by: superherofan at: 1/17/03 4:48:51 pm
superherofan
 


Yay!

Postby Iamyouknowyours » Fri Jan 17, 2003 6:57 pm

I am just so delighted to read this. After swearing off Buffy for the wave of depression it always left me in each week after if lost its Ambery goodness, I happened upon an episode of Charmed. I'll admit I stayed tuned only because I have a weakness for hot red-headed witches, but I found myself thoroughly enjoying it. Since then I have been watching it faithfully each week and catching the TNT reruns when I can. And I must tell you I agree 100% with the essay. Mentioning a loved one after they died occationally? What a wild idea! Having consistency of character and magic? Who would want that when you could instead watch the characters you care about slowly (or rather quickly) destroy themselves until the point that incredibly talented actors who play them can not even make their dialogue believable.



I'd like to end my comments with two potential reasons #11 and #12:



To the best of my knowledge, the creators of Charmed have never repeatedly lied to their fans in an effort to lure them into a false set of security.



Although a beloved character, I have heard talk that Cole is going to be killed off, because it would be unbelievable for him to live any longer. Believability is more important than popularity. However Spike, who the majority of fans (including myself) love has escaped death so many times that his character is becoming almost laughable.

Iamyouknowyours
 


Re: Yay!

Postby The Rose24 » Fri Jan 17, 2003 8:16 pm

I have watched Charmed from the beginning, and I have never said it is better than Buffy until now. Now, Charmed is the show I just can't miss.

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.


The Rose24
 


Re: Yay!

Postby Munchkin » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:33 pm

Hmmmm. Though I've hardly ever seen Charmed since it first aired, I may be inclined to give it a closer look now that I know that it's OK to enjoy a show that's largely meant to be fluffy and not-too-serious, cause that's where the fun is to be found, something Buffy doesn't have anymore.



Truth be told, I was a more impressionable person back then in believing what was "reported" about Shannen Doherty's on-set "problems", so I tended to let that bias my decision over whether or not I'd take the time to watch the show. But I've always liked that Holly-Marie Combs dame since I'd first seen her from Picket Fences, so it was worth it to see her at least. Now, it's even more watchable with Rose McGowan (rowwwlll!!). And with red hair.



I did, however, see most of that crucial first episode that dealt with Prue's death and remembered how much better they handled her inability to communicate to Piper and Phoebe from the Great Beyond like the spirits of their mother & grandmother could. Now that I think about it, that's exactly how Buffy handled Cassie "speaking" for "Tara", which made that a blatant rip-off!!



Well Bob, there's one more thing to add to your Revised List, which is pretty awesome BTW. Hope that helps.

___________



Dave C.

Edited by: Munchkin at: 1/17/03 7:35:10 pm
Munchkin
 


Re: Yay!

Postby Sheridan » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:43 pm

Charmed has overtaken Buffy in no small part because the characters have been true to themselves. Phoebe has been to hell and back but she still fundamentally remains Phoebe. Willow on the other hand has been turned inside out. Her transition form S1-5 was a consistent development but in the last two it was shot to hell.:spin

Willow: ...I have to tell you....

Tara: No, I understand you have to be with the person you l-love

Willow: I am

Sheridan
 


Re: Yay!

Postby sam7777 » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:00 pm

Charmed has also overtaken Buffy in the ratings (from the Futon critic):



Charmed highest national rating was 3.2/5 better than Buffy's 3.1/5. it only has had one episode rated below 3.1 while buffy has had 4 eps in the 2's. It has also actually gone up in rating since the premiere (3.1 to 3.2). Charmed really has the steady decent ratings that Buffy wishes it could have.



Season Average weeks 1-16

Buffy: 4.07 million viewers, 2.51/4.00 national rating, 3.31/5.06 overnight rating



Charmed: 4.71 million viewers, 2.85/4.50 national rating, 3.99/6.00 overnight rating



Charmed national ratings by episode:

09/22/02 - 3.1/5 (2 eps)

09/29/02 - 3.1/5

10/06/02 - 3.1/5

10/13/02 - 3.1/5

10/20/02 - 3.2/5

11/03/02 - 2.9/4

11/10/02 - 3.2/5

11/17/02 - 3.1/5

01/05/03 - 3.2/5

01/12/03 - 3.2/5



_____________________

I see dead lesbian cliches

sam7777
 


Version #2

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:28 am

Version #2 is now posted at the top of this thread, where version #1 originally was. It's different in places. Some of you who made comments on version #1 might even see your contributions in it. :)



I'd like to start getting this out on the net. I've only posted at TWOP a handful of times, so I don't really know the ropes over there. I've got a Charmed site where I want to post it, too. Anybody have other suggestions?

"If you are going to give a new message to the world, you will do so without being conscious of it yourself. If you set out to do it consciously, you will fail because you will be trying to pose; and the man who poses is insincere." - Charles V. Stanford

BBOvenGuy
 


Re: Version #2

Postby gspiggott » Sat Jan 18, 2003 12:37 pm

Post it on the WB board for Charmed ,it's under the talk section of their home page.

gspiggott
 


Re: New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

Postby willow vixen » Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:00 pm

this article points out a lot of great observations that i couldn't have put into words. ...and here i thought that Charmed was just a show that somehow i enjoy watching without feeling stressed out at the end of the show every week.

~*~ you know, i'm yours. ~*~

Edited by: Warduke at: 1/18/03 4:45:35 pm
willow vixen
 


Re: New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

Postby WebWarlock » Sun Jan 19, 2003 12:13 pm

Ok,



As Bob's herald, you can now find this online at www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/tenways.html.



Please let everyone know.



Warlock

-----

Web Warlock

The Other Side,
home of Liber Mysterium: The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks


"Rock journalism is people who can't write interviewing people who can't talk for people who can't read." - Frank Zappa

WebWarlock
 


Re: New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

Postby tyche » Sun Jan 19, 2003 1:05 pm

Bob, is there any chance of persuading you to write an essay on Mutant Enemy's depiction of women some time? They seem to only have 3 or 4 character types for women which they use ad infinitum, and this is now getting really noticeable.

Also, if it's not too late, a word about ethnic minority characters on BtVS. (I am sure that the die-hards will use the recent increase in minority characters on BtVS as a way of discrediting your thesis.) The article last season which said that Buffy 'lived in Klan country' must really have had an effect, because ever since then there's been a veritable stampede of ethnic minority characters to Sunnydale. Unfortunately, they've either been cannon fodder (the slayers in training) or - how original! - evil or going that way (the new Principal.) You might also want to do a tally of all the ethnic minority characters on BtVS and their fates - I suspect this will be really revealing as the vast majority have been or become evil, disappeared for no good reason (Olivia) or been killled (Kendra.) This is a pathetic record for a show which is set in an area as ethnically diverse as Southern California.

tyche
 


Re: New Essay - 10 Ways that Charmed is better than Buffy

Postby The Rose24 » Sun Jan 19, 2003 9:07 pm

Charmed was AWESOME tonight!!!! This is all I will say since most people here have not seen it yet. I used to say this about Buffy. *Sigh*

Tara: My heart doesn't stutter.


Tara: Willow, I got so lost.

Willow: I found you. I will always find you.


The Rose24
 


Centennial Charmed

Postby BBOvenGuy » Sun Jan 19, 2003 11:56 pm

I think this will end up being a postscript for my essay:








Now that I've seen "Centennial Charmed," I'm struck by my sense of timing, because the show has Buffy echoes everywhere. Michelle Branch appears and sings exactly the same song as when she appeared on Buffy. The cemetery where Leo takes Paige is the Rosedale Cemetery in mid-city LA, a spot Buffy has used regularly for years. And the story premise is reminiscent of the Buffy Season 3 episode "The Wish," where Cordelia wishes that Buffy had never come to Sunnydale.



Now, before you accuse Brad Kern of ripping off Marti Noxon, let me point out that I could just as easily accuse Marti Noxon of ripping off the team that wrote "Yesterday's Enterprise" on Star Trek: The Next Generation, and I could then accuse them of ripping off It's a Wonderful Life, etc. etc. There's no such thing as a unique story premise. What matters is how that story premise is played out, and that's where the difference between Charmed and Buffy becomes glaringly obvious.



In "Centennial Charmed," the three Charmed Ones reunite in the alternate universe and triumph over evil.



In "The Wish," alternate-Buffy and her alternate-friends kill each other in a meaningless fight. I say "meaningless" because Giles is the one who saves the day, and he's off somewhere else doing something completely unrelated.



That difference says it all.








What do you think? A good ending?



Oh, and tyche:



Quote:
Bob, is there any chance of persuading you to write an essay on Mutant Enemy's depiction of women some time?




Hmmmm... Well, these things just kind of pop into my head from time to time, so you never know. I'll let it churn around for a while and see if anything happens.

"If you are going to give a new message to the world, you will do so without being conscious of it yourself. If you set out to do it consciously, you will fail because you will be trying to pose; and the man who poses is insincere." - Charles V. Stanford

Edited by: BBOvenGuy  at: 1/20/03 10:38:08 am
BBOvenGuy
 


Re: Centennial Charmed

Postby willntlover » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:23 pm

I watched the "charmed" eppy, and I did see the parallels. Of course I also noticed that everyone lived. (cept for Cole, but we all know why he was killed. And for credible reasons too.)



Your essay really points out how different the writers are for the two shows. I just wish everyone could read your essays. :)



-Will

"I think finding her soulmate would have made Tara a more confident and secure person" -Amber Benson

willntlover
 


Re: Centennial Charmed

Postby darkmagicwillow » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:33 pm

I enjoyed "Centennial Charmed" last night, and I found their solution to Cole's invincibility ingenious though I wasn't clear on what Cole was in the past. It seemed like he had become The Source again, but they didn't use that vanquishing spell against him.



However, it doesn't compare to "The Wish." The dark atmosphere of "The Wish" was great. Charmed wasn't able to pull that off despite a good beginning in the destroyed club and scary Piper in leather. The darkness of both is meant to show by contrast the amount of good the protagonists have accomplished, and it doesn't work unless it really feels dark. Charmed wasn't able to do that with Cole and Phoebe whose problems felt more like ordinary marital ones than anything really evil, particularly since we've seen them together in the past.



The dark moments like "The Wish" are part of what made Buffy great, but so was Giles' heroism in destroying Anyanka's talisman and that wonderful moment afterwards where we see Buffy, Willow, and Xander talking and joking at school, happy and strong in themselves and their bond with each other. It's those moments of courage in facing the darkness and those of friendship and love afterwards that was the other part of what made Buffy great, and that's what they lost in season 6.



It's an interesting comparison, but not one that supports your point very well. If you want an episode comparison, how about comparing "Normal Again" with the one where the Source tries to convince Piper that she's not a witch. Buffy attacks her friends; Piper simply tries to give up her witchcraft and she's under the influence of the Source of All Evil.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 1/20/03 10:41:17 am
darkmagicwillow
 


Re: Centennial Charmed

Postby BBOvenGuy » Mon Jan 20, 2003 12:46 pm

I liked "The Wish" at the time, but like everything else about Buffy my opinion of it has soured in light of the UPN seasons.



First of all, as I said above in my revised revised postscript, the big fight where they all kill each other is meaningless. Giles is the one who saves the day, and he's not involved in the fight at all. Secondly, the dark tone - Anyanka saying "This is the world we made" or something like that while we see all our heroes dying one by one - makes it pretty clear that the utterly bleak despair of S6 and S7 was in the minds of Joss and Marti and their crew long before it showed up on the air. "The Wish" is more warning sign than classic to me now.



Another thing about the fight - in "Yesterday's Enterprise," the good guys all die too, but they die in a heroic act of sacrifice, taking on three Klingon battlecruisers so that the older Enterprise-C can get back through the time rift and fix the course of history. That's very different from the way the wishverse characters die.



And another thing about character continuity - one of my favorite things about "Centennial Charmed" is the fact that Cole changes the entire world so that he can have Phoebe, only to discover that Phoebe still hates him. Phoebe is Phoebe, no matter what's going on around her. Similarly there was also the minor bit about Piper insisting on having her baby in a hospital. The Charmed Ones stay themselves a lot more consistently than the Buffy characters do.

"If you are going to give a new message to the world, you will do so without being conscious of it yourself. If you set out to do it consciously, you will fail because you will be trying to pose; and the man who poses is insincere." - Charles V. Stanford

BBOvenGuy
 


Re: Centennial Charmed

Postby darkmagicwillow » Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:11 pm

I think the pointless tragedy of the fight with the Master is part of what made the dark atmosphere so intense. The hero not only lost, but she shouldn't have been there at all. I liked that the characters were different in The Wish. They'd have to be. Buffy being even more impulsive without Giles's influence and Willow and Xander (un)dead without her all made sense.



I'm not sure how much the producers really had in mind of the later seasons that early, no matter what they say about having it all planned out, though certainly they tried to put as many hooks into early episodes to enable as many future stories as they could. But with any serial story, particularly in a medium with actors, you can't plan everything.



Season 6 hasn't poisoned the Buffyverse for me. In fact, as I've read Pens more and more to blot out what happened, I've gained a deeper appreciation of the characters and their relationships that lets me enjoy watching older episodes more with my new perspective. I'm much more charitable towards Anya and Dawn now that I've found fic versions I've liked, and I see even more depth to Willow and Tara together, and so forth.

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

darkmagicwillow
 

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