NEW FIC -- TEMPUS FUGIT (S7)

[lipkandy]

hey eyeslie!!

okay, first of all, thank you for the roses. heh. and witchpunk thanks you as well (she's yelling from the other room). and so glad I good give you a good escape from S7. that's what it became for me (even though I wasn't watching). witchpunk was and that was enough incentive to get the whip cracking. I just couldn't let them do that to my favorite characters.



and

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Yay for your soft spot for missunderstood badasses!!!

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yes, that twist was in the cards from the beginning and I felt so evil for holding onto it for so long. you wouldn't believe how many things weren't (in the cards), so much kinda happened along the way with this fic. the characters really told me what to do, what they wanted and buffy really secretly wanted *evil grin* faith (I mean, who wouldn't). and my own oft-misunderstood badass is smirking at me from the doorway.



as for prequels and sequels....definitely in the works although I'm beginning to wonder what the readers would prefer to see first -- sequel or prequel?? I've been preoccupied w/W/T's much more complicated this time around first kiss rewrite, but...just wondering. as for me being a goddess....heh. thank you, *blushing* but I think I'll leave that to Willow and Tara. or maybe xita. she created this Kitten world along with her pantheon of moderators so I'll defer to the higher powers.



and thanks again!! for reading and posting the incredibly cool (I'm grinning and blushing again) feedback. woo and hoo!!



xomel

Edited by: lipkandy at: 5/27/03 4:16:47 pm

[JustSkipIt]

lipkandy,



Wow and also wow. First of all, I blame DMW for my not getting enough work done today. The other day she mentioned this fic in the recommendations thread. So I read the disclaimers and decided to read s4. Most of the s7 stuff is just too painful to me. I liked s4 but was intrigued by the interaction between the two and thought, "ok I'll try it..."



Now it's a few days later and I'm like omg. That was incredibly amazing. I can't even list all the totally amazing parts of it.



I loved the Willow's realization that this is the day that she will see Tara and that they will have their first kiss. And of course that is the first kiss that happens in your s4 story so even more brilliant. But then Tara is there and it's all so right with them and one of the most beautiful scenes I have read.



Then I feared that Willow and Buffy were going to start jumping around and not stay there but it was so amazing and beautiful that they did. In the meantime I was loving the Dawn/Faith interactions and the way that Faith wanted so badly to take care of Dawn. That was beautiful and primal.



The ending is amazing with all the realities kind of blending together into the single best ending. So that everyone has their happiness. And at the same time can completely appreciate what they have because they know what they almost lost. In a way as I read it I felt so sorry for Willow because I fear that she will spend all her life being so afraid of loosing this world. If you value something so greatly, so dearly, it is so hard to be afraid that you could lose it. And in this reality she would have to fear that someday the reality will change or that she could just lose Tara in some senseless act of violence or carelessness. That thrashes me!



As I read I kept wondering what would have happened if Dawn activated the heart and went back to s4. Would she be her in s4 which is the key/switch? Would she have had conciousness to get back? It's an intriguing idea.



Anyway, I didn't write enough to truly express my gratitude or admiration, but great job.



Debra

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"Keep in mind always the present you are constructing. It should be the future you want." - Alice Walker, Temple of My Familiar

[JewWitch18]

yup, yup yup. all hail lipkandy, princess of power-- I mean, goddess of the W/Tverse (where did that she-ra thing come from? I've got my inner action-hero-girly-fantasy trip goin' on, obviously...guess I always have!)



so since you're asking, I have to vote loudly and emphatically for a sequel. (I just hope witchpunk doesn't kick my ass for falling off the encourage-her-to-write-original-fic bandwagon...hell, I'm only human. dangle goodies in front of my face and I have to react somehow ) so, yeah. sequel all the way baby. there's just so much possibility in this new universe; you've basically got what in my head is the ultimate fantasy life for all these characters. plus, you get to rewite the new past. it could even be a prequel as a sequel, if you wanted to write in the backstory for the way things played out in this reality to bring us to the point, in this universe, where buffy and willow came back to. you know what I mean.



and hey, I've been re-reading my lovely kinko-bound hardcopy of TFs7, and reading it all at once, I'm even more struck by how much it flows. nothing that happens at the end is really surprising or hard to believe, because the characters, what's in their hearts, that doesn't change. it's a real "there but for the grace of getting bit" situation. you really do know these characters better than they know themselves. and I have always, always wanted to see a story that seriously pursued a friendship between tara and faith-- and this is it! I've always thought they'd have great chemistry (and this time I'm not talking about sex... ) and the ways you brought faith into relationship with the whole s5/s6 summers' household/family, you know, it was great. I can see faith making tara a little harder, tougher physically, and I can see tara bringing out the softest parts of faith in her gentle way, little by little so no one (including faith) even notices till later. yep, this little world you've cooked up is all of the good, my friend.



but, original fic...also of the good, the goodest even. right witchpunk?



--jenny

BUFFY: Is this where I'm supposed to be quivering in my stylish yet affordable boots?

--Lisa Countryman, "Unexpected Consequences"

[EyesLie]

Yep, me too. Errr, that is, I vote for a sequel too! Or a prequel that is a sequel?? Took me a moment to bend my mind around that, okay all bendy. Got it, yeah, that would definitely work! Tara's sleeping beauty comment definitely peaked my interest in knowing how things went down in this reality w/the heart. Oh, also, because I never mentioned it before, I so very much loved the pink lip-gloss B/F moment (the pale chapped lips are an image that totally struck me when watching the old eps on tv) & would love to know how that lil' bit had meaning to our slayers in this reality too! Oh, oh, and maybe just a little more D/R interaction too. Given some time, I do believe you may have a brand new ship on your hands....

Uh-huh, I guess it's safe to say there's tons of possibility to play with chica!



But, on the other hand despite my enthusiasm for a sequel/prequel. I'd love to see you re-write the first kiss. I'm a total sucker for W/T S4 what w/the awkward anticipation, the newness & the general giddiness that comes with new love. Heh, I guess what I really mean is I'll read anything you write. It's all good.

"Oh, I'm never really nice," Anya replied matter-of-factly. "I'm just the voice of truth in a world of artifice and social convention -On Second Thought, by AntigoneUnbound

[lipkandy]

um...wow, look at those

so much feedback-y goodness. this is gonna be a long one so skip it if you wish.



justskipit and wow right back at you. what great feedback. so I'll start with this

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So I read the disclaimers and decided to read s4.

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I'm so glad you took a chance on S7. I know how hard it is to read anything past Seeing Red. and it has been pointed out to me that my disclaimers are a little too much, but i'm terrible at that sort of thing.

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But then Tara is there and it's all so right with them and one of the most beautiful scenes I have read.

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thank you. I know it sounds crazy, but it kind of wrote itself. I could see and hear Willow struggling with this terrible moment and Tara finding her in pain and...they really told me what to do in that scene.

and as for Willow constantly being worried about losing this reality...couldn't that be a good thing too? it was when she began to take things for granted (her own power, Tara's love, her friends) that things started to go badly. besides, she has Tara there to hold on to.

and Dawn using the Heart to go back to S4 and is she the Key...okay, now that's a head trip. whoa!

thank you again, it's readers (and writers! yes, I've been guilty of lurkage in W/T Season 3 Y'all (sp?) -- I am from the south after all)

like you that make this all worth it.



ah jewwitch jennyleh my lovely little dandelion (sorry, no dandelion emoticon...I checked) heh. witchpunk is shaking her head at your bad influence self (you're lucky she has a thing for glasses-wearing smartypants). 'prequel as sequel' see, you're getting all meta on my thickheaded self again. but I think I know what you're talking about what happened while buffy and willow were out wandering (w/o their bodies). or do you mean even farther back? (Glory, Dark Magic Willow,etc.). it's going to be a tightrope act of showing vs. telling and you know how I hate the clunky exposition. "You remember Dawn, like when Glory pushed Spike off the tower and Faith kicked the lizard guy's ass..." *shudder*

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I can see faith making tara a little harder, tougher physically, and I can see tara bringing out the softest parts of faith in her gentle way, little by little

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exactly! There are so many amazing post S6 stories, but I've noticed that they all focus on Tara's 'outsiderness' or 'differentness' after her return (which is so not a bad thing -- Terra Firma, Doppelgangland, The Dark Rose, etc., etc. are frikking amazing!), but I kind of fell in love with the idea of this parallel universe Willow returns to where Tara is abolutely integral and her presence and influence are felt in all of the Scoobs... and I'm babbling again see what you do to me!



and original fic is coming along so I may be allowed a short break (in a month or two) to write a little somethin' somethin'.



eyeslie!hey! okay, so two votes so far for Sleeping Beauty, The Sequel heh. and that image of Faith all vulnerable with the chapped lips always got me too. how could they make her all evil after that?!? I mean, a little evil I get (because she's faith), but....

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I'd love to see you re-write the first kiss. I'm a total sucker for W/T S4 what w/the awkward anticipation

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so am I. I am such a sucker for shy, awkward W/T struggling to overcome their insecurities. *sigh* I even have the whole thing worked out in my head. see, there's a cold snap caused by this demon that Buffy let get away because she's all distracted (because she's secretly visiting comatose Faith and lying to Riley and everyone about it) and Faith wakes up and goes missing and Willow's avoiding Tara (because it all starts from the moments after Willow left Tara's room after the disastrous 'I love you' explosion) even though they need Tara's help with the demon....but there's no Dawn/Rain so there goes that idea.



and it just hit me that you said darkmagicwillow's recomendation in the rec thread. wow! I've never been officially recommended before *blushes*. I don't know how many times I can say thank you to your darkmagicwillow self, but a huge thank you is in order... for everything you do





again with the you all rock!!



xomel

Edited by: lipkandy at: 5/29/03 4:35:53 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

Having meta thoughts myself, I don't think what you're doing is as simple as a prequel or sequel, any more than the s7 Tempus Fugit was a sequel to the s4 one.



I dislike sequels in general. Prequels too. They pretend to be the book you loved, but they're usually a continuation of the same ideas and characters, whereas what you loved was what was new about the original: meeting the characters, seeing their relationships form, and hearing all the exciting new ideas. Sometimes people manage to overcome this problem and take their sequels in exciting new directions, but most fail. You don't have to worry about this though.



What you're talking about writing is something neither prequel nor sequel. There are all those timelines and potential stories that may have occurred in some superposition of events, but we don't know exactly what happened. While technically the new story is a consequence of what happened here, it's only indirectly so. It's also not really a prequel as we only have a single chapter that happens after the story, which is more like reading the epilogue of the prequel than anything else.



What you're doing is not a sequel or prequel any more than any fan fiction really has that relationship to the show, yet there is this definite if complex connection to Tempus Fugit which intrigues me and makes me hope for a bit of metastory aspect that will tantilize us with hints at that connection through both your new stories. I'm quite intrigued by the whole idea, especially as I'm working on metastory ideas myself, and I'm looking forward to seeing it. As for me, I'm more interesting in reading what you have in store for us in the s6 time frame than s4, but write what you need and want to.



p.s.: Our posts overlapped so I just saw your postscript. You're more than welcome for the well-deserved recommendation. And thanks for your comments about The Dark Rose.



I'm looking forward to what your Tara will be like, how you'll take advantage of all the pasts you've teased us with in these stories. I've reread the scene with the cards several times, coming up with my own thoughts and images about Tara's new past and present, and that's a sign of a really good story. In fact, thinking thoughts like that was how I got into writing fanfic in the first place. You might get people writing TF based fanfic some day. (-;

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 5/29/03 4:59:29 pm

[JewWitch18]

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but I think I know what you're talking about what happened while buffy and willow were out wandering (w/o their bodies). or do you mean even farther back? (Glory, Dark Magic Willow,etc.).

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yes. both. either. or some third option outside of the binary system of discrete temporal choices (okay, now even I know I'm being a wise-ass... ) see, I know you, miss xomel, and I know that you already know exactly what went on in this universe between S3 and "the now." when did things start getting different? did faith still kill allen? did angel get through to her the first time, did wesley somehow not get his punk ass in the way? what was different in S4, S5? see, I know you know, and I wanna know what you know. because I don't know. you know?



--your little dandelion



ps-- yay for me, I'm extra flamey! are you kvelling, or what?

BUFFY: Is this where I'm supposed to be quivering in my stylish yet affordable boots?

--Lisa Countryman, "Unexpected Consequences"

[lipkandy]

dmwheh. leave it to you to catch my on my lazy semantics. you're right, sequel isn't the right word for what I'm thinking about. the pieces I have in mind are more like episodes that happen on this new show, Tempus Fugit -- The Witches, the Key and the Vampire Slayers or something like that.



I'm not a fan of sequels myself, except when they take things in new directions. so no worries, this won't be a case of 'guess where's that wacky Heart's going to turn up next, kids!' The Heart is...well, it's broken.



and yes, the metastory thing is a huge issue 'cause I don't want to lose that and as I'm sure you know (since you're working on one) it takes HUGE amounts of time and mental energy to make sure all of the pieces fit. a lot of the fun (and the terror) of this fic for me was that I kept painting myself into corners and had to figure a way out.



and there's already some TF fanfic happening (huge hugs to those of you who emailed them to me but I'd love to know your thoughts on what happened w/Tara and the Cards and, well, everything.



and you jewwitch and you know how I love the wiseass.

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when did things start getting different? did faith still kill allen? did angel get through to her the first time, did wesley somehow not get his punk ass in the way?

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heh. Wesley's 'punk ass'. LOL. hmmm...um... various sounds of...I know what you want to know, but I think you probably know all there is to know already you just don't know that you know it yet. you know?



yes I'm all with the kvelling but more for the graduating (you) 'cause you've always been extra flamey to me. heh.





xomel

Edited by: lipkandy at: 5/30/03 8:53:19 am

[TexanZeppo256]

lipkandy: How about Tempus Fugit: Witches, Switches and Slayers, Oh My!



I loved your fic. Absolutely loved it. What suprised me the most was that, although I did tear up something fierce when Willow let go of everything in the Nether Realms, I was torn up the most when Buffy said goodbye to her mother, to Joyce. There was something about the raw emotion of that scene that just reduced me to quiet sobs. I think I know why I'm suprised; Buffy was always the most emotionally retarded... no, I shouldn't say that... the most emotionally repressed character on the show. And to see such a proud, stoic warrior breaking into tears in a short, yet poigniant and unrefined cry, just for something soft, it shook me.



You have my respect lipkandy: It takes an author of true talent get me going quite like that.



Anyway, I'd love to read your next "sequel"/"prequel" (I realize, as darkmagicwillow pointed out, that those are inapropriate terms, but I can't think of anything else right now): I'd really like to see the character development of Rain (as in 40% chance of) and her budding relationship with Dawn. Will Rain be Tara to Dawn's Willow, or rather Faith to Dawn's Buffy? How will she react to and interact with the scoobies, especially Willow and Tara? (Is Rain her first or her last name?) And what about our two girls? Is Willow still too insecure about herself and her relationship with Tara, especially now that Tara has apparently taken on the slightly butch role of front-line slayerette? Are there still trust issues between Will and Tare over what Willow did while in her DMW phase? How will Tara ease Willow back into magick? Will Willow even have a chance to ease into magic? What's their exact relationship with Dawn now that Buffy is back and actually happy? Is Buffy actually happy with the passionate-yet-incommunicative relationship with her dark Slayer? Is Faith? What's the deal with Anya and Xander? Is Anya still a vengence demon? How has Xander's injury changed him? And when Faith refered to Anya as a "VD", was she making a crack about her sexual promiscuity?



Sorry. Sometimes I become a tad possessed by the spirit of Willow-Babble. But they're all important questions that I'd love to see answered in a new fic!



Meanwhile, though... thank you. Thank you very, very much for the fic that you have given us. It's a jewel that I and countless other kittens will treasure for years to come.



Dasvadanya.

semper te inveniam: "I will always find you"

[lipkandy]

texanzeppo wow and thanks!!

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How about Tempus Fugit: Witches, Switches and Slayers, Oh My!

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I think that may be a keeper

and

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I was torn up the most when Buffy said goodbye to her mother, to Joyce. There was something about the raw emotion of that scene that just reduced me to quiet sobs.

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I know what you mean and I think it may be because the Pens have been so cathartic for W/T grief you know? there are so many fics (and even so many places in my own fic) that deal with that tragedy, but there isn't so much about Buffy dealing with Joyce's death (and there certainly wasn't on the show).

and as for your questions regarding the sequel:

kinda and no. another outsider trying to find her place. first. hmmm, willow and tara are equals (different but equal) in my mind and Tara as butch ?? she's laughing at your description. I don't think (this) Tara would ever call herself butch (although she wanted me to add that she's very flattered). some trust issues, mainly on the side of trusting themselves (willow primarily). willow's already practicing magick (hence the accident with the heart). part-time moms/sisters/mentors/friends. buffy happy? hmmm. they're trying VERY hard to communicate (which is more than I can say for S5-7 buffy) and they get it right some of the time. A/X =4ever or something. no. yes, every word out of Faith's mouth is sexual isn't it?

just a tease... and yes, they'll be answered in the next episode (most of them).



thanks again for posting and for making me blush with the praise!



xomel

Edited by: lipkandy at: 6/5/03 2:20 pm

[TexanZeppo256]

[bump]

semper te inveniam: "I will always find you"

Edited by: TexanZeppo256  at: 6/5/03 10:22 pm

[TexanZeppo256]

lipkandy: NP. I just call 'em like I see 'em, is all. Thanks for the answers, can't wait for the new fic!

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hmmm, willow and tara are equals (different but equal) in my mind

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Well, I kinda fig'd- I was really wondering though if Willow knew that they were equals. Tara, too, for that matter.



I'm also curious about what this Willow did while in her DMW phase: Was it as bad as in Tabula Rasa(BtVS 6.08), or worse? If the upcoming fic is a prequel, then I'm very curious to see how differently that worked out.

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willow's already practicing magick (hence the accident with the heart).

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Hmm... let me rephrase that: I realize that Willow was practicing magic -albiet with some considerable trepidation- at the beginning of the fic, and that was how both Buffy AND herself got transported through time/space. However, after Willow ended the spell, she was no longer the Willow that existed at the beginning -or at least not completely. She was instead Willow from the cannon universe who had assimilated the memories of a Willow from another, fannon universe. My question should have been, "When Cannon Willow was practicing magicks in her universe before the Tempus Fugit spell, was her Fannon counter-part practicing as well?"



Lol! Does that question even make sense?



[Reposted due to sig problems]

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T: Ego tam aberraveram...

W: Te repperi. Semper te reperiam.



(Translated from "The Gift")

[tommo]

Okay.



I just read this all the way through from beginning to end. Honestly, I'm a little speechless now, and more than a little verklempt (which is probably not the wisest position to be in with a fridge full of beer...) so if you don't mind, I'm going to wait a short while before posting some feedback.



I would, however, like to apologise for not keeping up with this fic as it was posted. You know how sometimes things escape your attention, and then when you go back to them you realise that you almost missed out on something amazing. I kind of feel a bit like that now. So I'm thankful I read this all the way through to the end; at the same time, I'm just trying to find coherent words to try and express my reactions to it. I will though; promise.



But for now, it's lots of thinking and lots of beer. Oh, and perhaps a well-timed email to that special woman. You made my heart full. Damn you.



Okay. I'm back again now. Coherent thoughts still absent but hey, there you go. That's pretty much my general state on a daily basis. Ahem.



I think what I loved most about this fic was the ebb and flow of intensity throughout all of it. Whether you were focusing on the Scoobies in Sunnydale, or whether you pulled us into the moments between Willow and Tara, the unmistakeable truth of the way they felt was always there. You wrote the scenes between them, the discovery of one another again, and, perhaps, the discovery of a truer Tara than the one we've already seen, so very well. There was a poignancy and a sadness that underlined every second between them; the hurt and shame of the past/future enveloping them just like the magic they create together. The way that you showed their intrinsic natures to each other, and also to us, was, I think, one of the most beautiful things I've read in a long time.



What touched me the most was the repeated notion of not being able to cope with losing each other. It wasn't rooted in sex; nor was it rooted in a purely emotional bond; it was, to me, deeply ingrained in the idea of true love, and what that means to a human being. As I understand it, anyone who's experienced the truth of love (and I think it's clear from this fic that you have) can empathise with all the feelings in this. And by that, I'm not just talking about Willow and Tara, but also the relationship between Buffy and her mother; Buffy and Dawn, and, most importantly, Buffy and Willow.



Their friendship was something that you analysed without being too prosaic, or making it too obvious. The subtleties of the way they relate to one another, and the support that Buffy knew had been lacking from her relationship with Willow was not only brought out into the open here, but exploded with a clarity of vision onto the page. I loved how you managed to strengthen that bond without taking anything away from either character; without having them back down on anything or be less than they are.



The other thing that I really liked was that you exhibited a great control of balance between the parallel storylines here. In a way, I think it was really clever to get Buffy and Willow "out of the way", so to speak, so that Faith and the other Scoobies could take centre stage back in Sunnydale. You know I'm a huge Faithophile and here it was just so wonderful to see her being written properly. I've always been disappointed at so many fics that give her the bad girl image and nothing else. In this fic, you managed to round her out nicely; you made her care, you made her feel. And that became so important given the ending of the story. The Faith at the end of the fic was more than deserving of her prize; Buffy. That's why that shippiness really worked for me, as did Buffy's reconsidering of her feelings towards Faith. Having seen how hard Faith tried to do what she was chosen to do made her payment at the end of the fic all the more appropriate.



But, as always, it's the story of Willow and Tara that I'm drawn back to. The desperate tension that existed between them in some scenes was palpable. The way they clutched onto one another, and Willow's poor heart, grieving for Tara, whilst at the same time, screaming with joy at finding her again. Contrasting those two emotions so starkly, given Willow's determination not to lose Tara again was just heartrending. But bloody good.



And yeah, the ending was a total surprise for me. In a way, I'm glad I caught up with the whole fic again before reading the end, because I was so entrenched in the idea that Willow had to return to the emptiness so that she wouldn't die. I wasn't sure what you were going to do; I didn't have any idea that when she came back to Sunnydale as is, she would have her heart filled with a whole new set of memories. I'm really thankful that you made her happy; I'm grateful that you respect the characterisation enough to not just tie things up really neatly, but to set a whole new series of events in motion. And yet, you remained true to a believable style of storytelling, and never once wavered or compromised on the story you had to tell. Yes, at times it was intensely difficult to read, but, when it comes down to it, it was so very worth reading.



Thank you so much for this fic; it's going to be one that rambles around in my head for a long time. I felt like that about Terra Firma and I know I already do about this. There are really very few stories that I take away from the board with me, but I know that this is one of them. You touched me, and made me think, and, most of all, you reminded me of what's important to me. The fact that you managed to do that, and yet speak to hundreds of other readers at the same time is a real achievement.



Wonderful work. Inadequate words of congratulation, I know, but this really was just wonderful.

"Cheese board now." ~ Blue Stilton Willow

Edited by: tommo at: 6/6/03 2:17 pm

[lipkandy]

texanzeppo okay, sorry for the smartypants over-literalness and general evasiveness. trying to give a few details without giving too much away (or painting myself into an impossible corner)

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I was really wondering though if Willow knew that they were equals. Tara, too, for that matter.

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definitely. they're equals with different strengths and this willow is more aware of Tara's strength in certain areas. does that make sense?

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"When Cannon Willow was practicing magicks in her universe before the Tempus Fugit spell, was her Fannon counter-part practicing as well?" Lol! Does that question even make sense?

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sorry for the head-bendiness. um, various sounds of hesitation, yes? to my mind there was a definite descent into darkness for Fannon Willow, but it was more about power and not about addiction thus, no withdrawal/cold turkey. in the W/T verse I've tried to go back to the metaphor of magic=love -- a positive energy that can be redirected in negative ways (just like love that is transformed into hate, jealousy, etc.) if a person is weak/insecure/etc. so...does that help?



and ruth mutual admiration society indeed. so I've already established my discomfort with the ...um...you know. so I'm going to try not to resort to the funny although I'm really all verklempt myself. I'm gonna try to respond to your feedback with at least half the eloquence...oh who am I kidding



but I loved this

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But for now, it's lots of thinking and lots of beer. Oh, and perhaps a well-timed email to that special woman. You made my heart full. Damn you.

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I think that's the highest praise of all and I hope she enjoyed the email.



and yes,

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it was, to me, deeply ingrained in the idea of true love, and what that means to a human being. As I understand it, anyone who's experienced the truth of love (and I think it's clear from this fic that you have)

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that was definitely the point of this for me. it was kind of my really long love song for W/T and even Buffy, Willow, Faith and Dawn. it takes incredible strength and bravery to trust someone else (and yourself) implicitly and I thought it was time to acknowledge that they were all brave enough. and I felt like Tara was the key to this, she was the only one strong enough to hold up this other love verse and lead Willow from that terrible empty place you talked about back to them. because, let's face it, Willow's strength is her brain and that can get you into trouble in a situation like this. brains just overcomplicate matters. sometimes you have to feel your way and trust what the world is telling you and that's Tara's domain (IMO).



and Faith...heh. I'm so glad she worked for you because WOW is she hard to write! such a tightrope act. I wanted so badly for her to still maintain that constant edge (even in the new reality) of her good intentions and her dangerous inclination to screw things up with her temper and impulsiveness. it's interesting to me reading your Faith in Final Exam, she has that S3 still-trying-too-hard recklessness that is perfect for that Faith. I wanted so badly for this Faith to be the logical result of that wild child shaped by her her own penance (she turned herself in after all) in Canon and by Tara and the group's 'acceptance in Fanon *wink to texanzippo*. she and Buffy do deserve each other and I mean that in the best and worst sense.



as for Willow finding a truer Tara I hope that's true because I think Tara deserved better. at that point in her life (S4) I believe she had absolutely no hope of being with Willow. she believed she was worthless and undeserving of someone like Willow and, to my mind, lived in constant fear of losing her (if she found out about the demon for example) even as a friend. I loved being able to play around with that, to show Willow unequivocally proclaiming her love (and lust) for Tara and seeing what affect that would have on the shy super-strong blonde witch. but both of them still grappling with that constant threat of losing each other (in many different ways). then again, when you're in love that's the really scary thing anyway isn't it? and yes, you're right I do know firsthand all about the true love thing



so, that was completely inadequate (maybe someone -- Tulipp, DMW, you Ruth -- should start a feedback/feedback clinic) way of expressing the huge grinning, blushing thanks for the stupendous feedback. so once again I say the Kittens rock!



xomel

[TexanZeppo256]

Thanks for clearing that up, lipkandy. I'm now one happy kitten.



Still can't wait for the new fic!



Beautiful response, tommo -erm, i mean, Ruth. Quite beautiful. Yours is a clarity of the analitical AND the poetic that I drool over.

---------------------------------



T: Ego tam aberraveram...

W: Te repperi. Semper te reperiam.



(Translated from "The Gift")

[darkmagicwillow]

You write great replies (metafeedback?), and hey, I'm still reading this thread so I can catch more of your thoughts about your story, so you must be doing it right, right? I found your words on Tara's keyness to creating the new world incisive as I hadn't thought about it that way but it makes complete sense. I really need to start rereading...



Ruth, I loved your idea of a truer Tara, that altering Tara's past hasn't distorted her life but produced a version of herself that is truer to her character because of the opportunities offered by the change. In speculative fiction, the idea of altering reality is almost always presented as a bad thing, and if the good guys are altering reality to make it truer to itself, it's by reversing someone else's changing of the past.



However, you've reversed that idea here by allowing Buffy to be the one to save Tara, by letting Tara be the Key to bringing the realities together, and finally by letting Tara become a truer version of herself. They've produced a new reality together, and one that is truer to itself in all of its characters than the one they've replaced.



It's important not only that Willow doesn't act for her own personal gain, despite an enormous temptation to do so, but also that her actions aren't what produce the new truer reality that she desires. We haven't emerged into Willow's world, made to fit her wishes, but one shaped by all of the characters of the story, both the ones in the past with Occam's Heart and the ones in the present defending their ability to create a new reality from the past.



Oh, and what's the relationship between Occam's Razor and Heart?

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

Edited by: darkmagicwillow at: 6/7/03 2:01 pm

[tommo]

Okay, so if that was metafeedback, then does this constitute supermetafeedback?



Or um, should I just stop now, whilst I'm still ahead?



Oh bugger it...

Quote:

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Ruth, I loved your idea of a truer Tara, that altering Tara's past hasn't distorted her life but produced a version of herself that is truer to her character because of the opportunities offered by the change. In speculative fiction, the idea of altering reality is almost always presented as a bad thing, and if the good guys are altering reality to make it truer to itself, it's by reversing someone else's changing of the past.

---

DMW, I love that notion. I agree with you on the altering of reality note in that we're so often given an AU, or an AU within a fic as key to entering "badness", so to speak. I think what was so beautiful about this fic was that all the realities held such love and such sorrow. The balance and effect of that idea was what sustained the notion of change, and also prohibited it, as well.



I've always been fascinated by what Tara's character might have become if she hadn't been held down by her past. And I think, in a way, what we do in our fics, this one and also, to some extent, in Final Exam, is to look at the person Tara might have been, should someone or something have intervened sooner than it did in these stories.



I think, in essence, it's a tribute to the understanding of Tara's character that these changes remain true to the person she is. I keep using that word "true" a lot; to me it's the only way of creating a recogniseable consistency within a story that is, as DMW says, speculative fiction. When I read a story, I'm usually open to a whole host of events, as long as I can recognise the characters and then travel with them on a journey to a place we might not have seen in the show.



Yes, Tara was changed indeed by the end of this fic. And she wasn't the person that we'd come to know so well in the early chapters, retrospectively, or the person that we saw in Season 4. But the essence of her character, and what she represented, namely, I would suggest, the strength and positivity of her heart, was here throughout.



So it's not only good storytelling, but it also informs me that there are writers out there who not only watch, assimilate and appreciate the onscreen characterisations, but also have the tenacity and talent to take them beyond what we've seen in the show itself. That's the thing I look for in fanfic. And that's the thing I strive for in my own fic, too.



Ah, dear lord. I don't half ramble on. I do apologise. But this whole idea of truth when it comes to characterisation has always been one of the tenets of my writing (and I know I'm not always successful with that), and it's so gratifying to see another writer (and there are a precious few whose fics I will always admire for that very thing) place importance on that, above and beyond the telling of the story.



And um, I think I'm done. Almost. Well, unless DMW or lipkandy decides to raise yet another fascinating point. I could honestly discuss this forever. No really; I could.



Incidentally, DMW, I'm probably going to have to re-read this whole story again now as well, just to nod and mutter knowingly over the things we've discussed here. Heh. I wonder, melissa, if I could possibly request a word version of this story, so I can keep it on disc?

"To make you a vampire they have to suck your cheese. And then you have to suck their cheese. It's like a whole big cheese thing." ~ Welcome To The Cheesemouth

Edited by: tommo at: 6/7/03 2:47 pm

[lipkandy]

holy...um...okay, we've got two of the best brains on the board waxing all poetic and now I'm all turned on



dmw your comments on the use of altered realities in fiction are so astute.

Quote:

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They've produced a new reality together, and one that is truer to itself in all of its characters than the one they've replaced.

---

exactly! *jumps up and down* I know this is going to sound insane, but that is exactly what happened. I started out wanting to rewrite the past couple of seasons and the characters asserted themselves and did it for me. it had to be these characters rewriting it (jewwitch you can chime in here at any moment Ms. Meta ) Buffy for Willow, Faith for Buffy, all of them for each other, not for themselves. because that ultimately was what the show (to me) was about when it was great. so really, they're just taking the Buffyverse back to a time when the right things mattered.

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It's important not only that Willow doesn't act for her own personal gain, despite an enormous temptation to do so, but also that her actions aren't what produce the new truer reality that she desires.

---

and again with the smiles...I don't want to get all spoilery, but no one has asked who Occum is (you got very close with "Ockham's razor and the Heart"-- or maybe that's only in my weird brain). who made the Heart for a Second Chance in the first place and how did it get away from them? *evil grin*



and ruth/tommo I'm right there with you on characterization

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When I read a story, I'm usually open to a whole host of events, as long as I can recognise the characters and then travel with them on a journey to a place we might not have seen in the show.

---

exactly! the stories I love, the thing that draws me back to certain stories over and over again is truth of character. I'll read just about anything if I feel like they got Tara's essence right. and Willow's. Tara was always harder for me and I think a lot of that is the fact that her character was neglected on the show (not to mention that I tend to over-identify with the babbling redhead). I really believe that so much of what i consider to be Tara's and Willow's character (thinking of your Canon vs. Fandom thread here DMW) comes from Pens. Tara and Willow in Final Exam, Terra Firma, Dumbsaint's Vixens (one of the first fics I ever read), The Dark Rose, Doppelgang Redux or even something as out delightfully out there as Cataclysm Cafe (where they aren't even Willow and Tara!!!)really flesh out these characters and make them live beyond the restrictions of the show. they they've made them more real. and there are so many other fics... don't get me stared.



and I think we're all trying to rewrite or at least add to the show aren't we? I mean, I find it hard to believe that your S3 Tara and Willow could ever evolve into the people we saw in S5, 6 or god forbid, 7. a Tara who has defeated her personal demon (Mr. Maclay -- I have faith heh) would never abandon Willow or allow her to fall into darkness. not to mention a more secure, loved willow would be able to resist that pull. these are characters who look to each other for help instead of turning away, turning inward. that's kind of the theme of the Pens I guess. In almost every story here, everyone is moving these characters toward a kind of courageous selflessness while the characters on the show grew more and more selfish and self-involved.



so yep, big yay to the truth in characterization. I'll follow a fic just about anywhere if W/T feel true.



texanzippoyour questions are right on! all of those issues are critical to any develoment in the series Witches, Switches and Slayers, O My. now I just have to figure it all out...or maybe I'll let Tara and Willow do it for me heh.





xomel





and you know what the absolute best thing about all of this wonderful feedback is?? no one I mean no one has asked about Spike. and that makes me unbelievably happy.

Edited by: lipkandy at: 6/7/03 3:30 pm

[tommo]

So uh...what about Spike then?

"To make you a vampire they have to suck your cheese. And then you have to suck their cheese. It's like a whole big cheese thing." ~ Welcome To The Cheesemouth

[darkmagicwillow]

If Ruth's post was supermetafeedback, this must be ... well, I give up on coming up with a comprehensible name for it. Let's simply call it "just another feedback post."

---

I started out wanting to rewrite the past couple of seasons and the characters asserted themselves and did it for me.

---

I've been outlining and outlining for about three months until Tulipp recently told me that I needed to stop and write something because you're right--you need to have a plan, but you can't plan everything and at some point you need to start writing and let your characters take you where they want to go.



One of the things I love about your story is that you've taken what seems to be question with only two answers--what should Willow do: remain in the past with Tara or return to the present without her--and discovered a third answer. As Ruth said, all of the realities here hold such sorrow and such love. How can you, as author, choose between them? And of course, you don't, you do something more complex, better, that feels truer to life.



You can't create a perfect life for yourself simply and improving your life often makes it more complex in some ways. Stories can be different and choose the simple perfect path. A lot of fanfic alters reality from canon to create a simpler, better world, but really good fanfic rejects the dichotomy between the simple, perfect fanon and imperfect canon in favor of a more complex, richer world. What's wonderful here is that you've not only done that on the level of the characters' new reality but also in the meta-level of the merging realities, letting the reader see the whole process of formation as the new world is created.



Hopefully that makes sense. I'm really struggling for words here.



While I haven't asked, I was wondering about who Occum was all through your story, assuming that you'd eventually explain it by the end, but then you distracted me with your surprising ending so well that I completely forgot about it until I asked my question about the razor and the heart.

---

Tara was always harder for me and I think a lot of that is the fact that her character was neglected on the show (not to mention that I tend to over-identify with the babbling redhead).

---

I know what you mean. Willow is easy because I identify with her strongly; however, Tara is hard because she's different from me, though I envy her ability to feel her way and trust what the world is telling her as you describe in an earlier post.



While we don't know much about Tara, there is an essence of her character that comes through despite how few lines she had and how few people she got to interact with. (Incidentally, Tara's interactions with the other Scoobies is the only reason I watch or read scenes from most s6 episodes again.) I guess what I'm trying to say is that Tara's held down not just by her past, as Ruth points out, but by her canon writers who either ignored or avoided exploring her true potential which is so well developed here.



I think you're right Ruth about the important of truth in characterization. Combining the elements of your post, I'd say that good storytelling is holding to the truth of your character while showing the reader something new about her that takes them beyond their initial understanding but that clearly follows from the essence of the character. It feels right to me, and I hope I haven't distorted your ideas by summarizing them in such a brief manner.



p.s.: Was Spike in the story? I've already forgotten him if he was. (-;

--

"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."

[TexanZeppo256]

Quote:

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a Tara who has defeated her personal demon (Mr. Maclay -- I have faith heh) would never abandon Willow or allow her to fall into darkness. not to mention a more secure, loved willow would be able to resist that pull.

---

Lipkandy, I would believe you on that statement IF you added the caveat that Willow's warning of a possible darkness in their future will also contribute to Tara's wariness of Will's forays into the dark. HOWEVER, I highly doubt that Tara would be very critical of Willow's Dark Magick usage untill it became just short of the breaking point. Tara has been 'saved' by Willow a lot of times -from the hellmouth, from her family, from Glory- and each time that she was saved she always had a tendancy to let things slide. It was the one character flaw that she had.



Ever since... the events of season 6... I have been trying to convince myself that Tara wasn't perfect, trying to find a consistent flaw in her personality. (I was doing this to make her even more real- to sort of hold on to an accurate picture of her essence -warts and all- not some idealized fantasy.) I just now realized what the flaw is- her hero worship. When Willow started delving into dark magicks in season 5, Tara only started to approach Willow about the subject with an insane amount of trepidation, and almost jumped on the chance to change the subject when Willow brought it up. Tara might have pursued the issue with a little more tenacity later on, but instead Glory happened, Willow saved her, and she let things slide again. She let them slide to the point that she almost lost Willow to the power of the dark stuffs.



Granted, this is a different universe, where Tara learns about her "family"'s lying far earlier than is Cannon, but still, it was Willow who saved her from this lie. So there should still be the element of hero worship that should pave the road for Willow and her trip into Rack-land.



Ruth- you keep talking about a true Tara, and about how the fics somehow surpass in their characterizations of Tara the veracity of her character as displayed on BtVS. I should remind you that there IS a difference between adding onto her essence and completely overhauling it!



I'm sorry if I'm being an ass- i'm a little PO'd at the moment and I shouldn't be taking it out on y'all. But its still agrivating to hear about the true Tara, when nobody in this whole goddamn universe (with a possible exception of Amber Benson, and even then its iffy) doesn't know what the TRUE Tara is like.



Sorry. I'll shut up now.

---------------------------------



T: Ego tam aberraveram...

W: Te repperi. Semper te reperiam.



(Translated from "The Gift")

[witchpunk]

okay, whoa. I don't post here very often, but I feel like I have to because I know lipkandy won't handle this in quite the way I will (she's far too nice).



texanzeppo

Quote:

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I'm sorry if I'm being an ass- i'm a little PO'd at the moment and I shouldn't be taking it out on y'all

---

you should take a moment and think about your posts before you hit that button because now I'm more than a little miffed. this isn't the place to vent or rant about your particular issues with Willow and Tara's characterization in fic or on the Pens.



I'm not even going to respond to most of your post (you telling my girl to caveat her statements just brings out the Dark Magic Witchpunk in me and I'm so not in the mood), but this statement just is too much to pass up

Quote:

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But its still agrivating to hear about the true Tara, when nobody in this whole goddamn universe (with a possible exception of Amber Benson, and even then its iffy) doesn't know what the TRUE Tara is like.

---

wrong. Tara is a creation and the fact is that everyone has their own version of the true Tara and they are all correct (even the ones I don't agree with). even yours. that was the thing that ME forgot. that Tara belongs to everyone and wasn't just theirs to twist and victimize. you're entitled to your opinion, but this is the Pens not an ME fanboard.



it was lipkandy's strong opposition to ME's treatment of Willow and Tara in the later seasons that inspired this fic. I can promise you without hesitation that there will be none of this:

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So there should still be the element of hero worship that should pave the road for Willow and her trip into Rack-land.

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I think melissa said it already...they are EQUALS. no hero-worship (WTF?!?). no trip to Rack land. period. this is lipkandy's Tara and she posted this fic here (this world she created) because she knew that this Tara and Willow would ring true (there's that pesky word again) for some of the readers here. If you can't get with that, maybe this isn't the place for you.



- the other melissa

Edited by: witchpunk at: 6/7/03 9:09 pm

[TexanZeppo256]

Quote: witchpunk

---

Quote:

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But its still agrivating to hear about the true Tara, when nobody in this whole goddamn universe (with a possible exception of Amber Benson, and even then its iffy) doesn't know what the TRUE Tara is like.

---

wrong. Tara is a creation and the fact is that everyone has their own version of the true Tara and they are all correct (even the ones I don't agree with). even yours. that was the thing that ME forgot. that Tara belongs to everyone and wasn't just theirs to twist and victimize. you're entitled to your opinion, but this is the Pens not an ME fanboard.

---

Umm... that was kinda, sorta, my point- as you said and as much as I hate to admit it, Tara only exists in the minds of others (at least in this universe). I was just trying to say that no one can really know what the true Tara is like because there IS no true Tara. We can only shape our image of what Tara is like to something that most kittens can aggree with. We can never really get to know Tara because she only exists in other universes. Writers like lipkandy can write the character of Tara and make her personality match fairly closely with what we saw on BtVS, and she can write Tara reacting to situations very believably, and I admire that. What I don't admire is when people like Ruth have the audacity to look at lipkandy's vision of what Tara is like and state unequivacably "That's the true Tara! Tara (whom I can't possibly know on any sort of level) acts just like that!" just because it happens to match their vision of Tara. (Sorry if that sounded harsh Ruth, I know that I did the same thing too, but that's kinda how I feel.)



Quote: witchpunk

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it was lipkandy's strong opposition to ME's treatment of Willow and Tara in the later seasons that inspired this fic. I can promise you without hesitation that there will be none of this:

Quote:

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So there should still be the element of hero worship that should pave the road for Willow and her trip into Rack-land.

---

I think melissa said it already...they are EQUALS. no hero-worship (WTF?!?). no trip to Rack land. period. this is lipkandy's Tara and she posted this fic here (this world she created) because she knew that this Tara and Willow would ring true (there's that pesky word again) for some of the readers here. If you can't get with that, maybe this isn't the place for you.

---

I realize that after 2 YEARS of being in a relationship that Tara and Willow would consider each other as equals. But I'm also saying that we have to keep in mind that nobody's perfect -not even Tara- and that in the begining of their relationship, Tara- due to her extreme shyness and lack of experience with deep relationships -would tend to idolize (just a little bit) the woman who opened up a whole new world to her. If Tara wasn't nearly as shy OR didn't have such an atrocious "family" OR had some previous experience with deep relationships, then no, she probably wouldn't have allowed Willow's slip into darkness. If lipkandy wants to change any of those- fine. I'm all for an AU story. Love 'em to death. But from what I read, she didn't change any of those in her fic, and I'd like to point out that the Tara that I envision does have that one character flaw early on in relationships.



I also pointed that out because I believe that all healthy relationships need a little bit of conflict every now and then. Granted, nothing nearly as severe as what ME did to the girls, but still...



Please don't get me wrong- I am very grateful for Pens. I don't know how many tears I've shed reading the emotionally moving fics that are on this board, and I can never fully explain my graditude for those experiences. And I'm very sorry if I came accross as a Joss-o-phile. If anything, I'd love to shoot off his writing hand so he can never butcher anyone else again. (But not kill him- never that)



Lastly, you're correct. I have no right to go badmouthing others just because I'm in a foul mood. And I'm sorry that I offended you in the heat of the moment. I promise to thouroughly scrutinize for content every word that I say from here on out.



Anyway, I'll get off my soap box now and let the Willow/Tara goodness resume. Sorry for clouting up the board.

---------------------------------



T: Ego tam aberraveram...

W: Te repperi. Semper te reperiam.



(Translated from "The Gift")

Edited by: TexanZeppo256 at: 6/8/03 1:51 am

[tommo]

Well...bearing in mind that we're having a dicussion here, and also bearing in mind that discussions of an emotive nature (and I think for a lot of us, talking about Tara is still such an issue) can include opposing ideas, I think it's worth picking up on a couple of things and talking about them in a controlled manner, rather than getting into a slanging match. So...I've had a good long think about what I've read here and there are a couple of things that I'd like to address.

Quote:

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Ruth- you keep talking about a true Tara, and about how the fics somehow surpass in their characterizations of Tara the veracity of her character as displayed on BtVS. I should remind you that there IS a difference between adding onto her essence and completely overhauling it!

---

Quote:

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I was just trying to say that no one can really know what the true Tara is like because there IS no true Tara. We can only shape our image of what Tara is like to something that most kittens can aggree with. We can never really get to know Tara because she only exists in other universes. Writers like lipkandy can write the character of Tara and make her personality match fairly closely with what we saw on BtVS, and she can write Tara reacting to situations very believably, and I admire that.

---

I think I was a little confused when reading the two above quotes. I agree with you wholeheartedly on there being a difference between adding to the essence of Tara's character and overhauling it completely. But then, I think that's a necessary evil in the world of fandom sometimes. Hence the appearance of "uberfics", or AU fics that offer a changed or altered perception of who a person is, or might have seemed to be in the show.



However, you make the point that a writer can add onto the "essence" of Tara's character, and then you go on to say that there is no true Tara. So which is it? Either writers get her character right, or they don't. And from what I can summise here, you're actually saying that no writer can do this, because the true nature of Tara's character is something that doesn't exist. You appear to contradict yourself slightly, which is, I'm sure, an oversight on your part.



As for the existence of a true characterisation; I'd like to suggest the notion that perhaps the person who created Tara had a bloody good idea of what her true personality was. Just a suggestion, mind. I'm not saying I know what was in Joss Whedon's mind when he created Tara; nor am I saying that Amber Benson knows everything there is to know about Tara. But generally, nobody knows the character like the person who gave it to the world (and by this, I mean any world) in the first place. Again, that's my stance as a writer. I would take to task anyone who suggested I didn't know Cerys in Touchstone better than anyone else.

Quote:

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What I don't admire is when people like Ruth have the audacity to look at lipkandy's vision of what Tara is like and state unequivacably "That's the true Tara! Tara (whom I can't possibly know on any sort of level) acts just like that!" just because it happens to match their vision of Tara. (Sorry if that sounded harsh Ruth, I know that I did the same thing too, but that's kinda how I feel.)

---

That's okay, if you feel that way. I wouldn't exactly describe my summation of Tara's character as "audacious", but hey, there you go. However, considering that you don't know an awful lot about me, or my history or involvement with either the show or writing about the show, I do think it's somewhat of a leap to come to the conclusion that it's audacious of me to assume I know anything about Tara's character. I was merely stating my views as I saw them; given my history with reading and interpreting fiction on many kinds of levels. But like I said, you don't really know me very well, so maybe you just got offended at the way my mind works when I'm reading fiction. I do apologise for that.



To suggest that I don't know Tara on any kind of level is a little offensive. But it certainly makes me want to go back and rework all my fanfic so far; I'm wondering now if I ever came close to writing a passable characterisation of Tara. Maybe I didn't. I just can't tell. Nobody's ever levelled that kind of criticism at me before so it's refreshing to reassess what I do here on Pens and also what I say in terms of me having no clue at all about the people I include in my fic, heh heh.

Quote:

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in the begining of their relationship, Tara- due to her extreme shyness and lack of experience with deep relationships -would tend to idolize (just a little bit) the woman who opened up a whole new world to her.

---

Well, I can see your point; it's a valid one, I suppose. But I would tend to disagree. If anything, I think the hero-worship would probably come from Willow. I mean, when it comes down to it, who opened up a whole new world of experience to whom? I would suggest that it was perhaps Tara who was the catalyst for Willow experiencing emotions and situations that she'd hitherto never considered a part of her life. But again, this is my opinion. I've been wrong before (see above).



Also, on a humorous point, you point out here that Tara has had a lack of experience with deep relationships. But you stated above that Tara is a character whom none of us know on any level. So how can you state this with confidence if we're all just guessing at who she is? Surely, to say something like that would involve having some kind of knowledge of her character and personality and, most importantly, her history. I'm wondering what would make you more qualified to assert this than anybody else who has offered feedback in this thread? Are you Joss Whedon in disguise?

"To make you a vampire they have to suck your cheese. And then you have to suck their cheese. It's like a whole big cheese thing." ~ Welcome To The Cheesemouth

Edited by: tommo at: 6/8/03 8:52 am

[lipkandy]

so, um, where were we?



tommo hmmm what about spike? *evil grin* I will say that he is exactly where he belongs -- in the supporting credits if he's there at all.



dmw

Quote:

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I've been outlining and outlining for about three months until Tulipp recently told me that I needed to stop and write something because you're right--you need to have a plan, but you can't plan everything and at some point you need to start writing and let your characters take you where they want to go.

---

please thank Tulipp for me (and yourself) because that was exactly what I needed to hear right now for my own fiction. but it's always such a slippery thing to remember -- to just write and it usually takes someone else to remind you. actually, this fic began with the idea that the Heart would function very much like it did in the S4 version, with Buffy and Willow jumping around to different events in Willow's past that she wanted to revisit (with Tara) with dangerous results, but as soon as I put the redhead with the blonde, she let me know in no uncertain terms that she wasn't going anywhere. and that she was powerful enough to break the Heart and stay there. so yeah, all that planning down the tubes (thankfully) and I'm very happy about it.

Quote:

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As Ruth said, all of the realities here hold such sorrow and such love. How can you, as author, choose between them? And of course, you don't, you do something more complex, better, that feels truer to life.

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and again, I think that's all down to the characters. I had all of these potential realities planned and mapped out and the characters brought those probability waves down to zero (or off to infinity) to make them real or not.

and I'll stick to that on Occum as well. I think I know who it is, but I don't want to get too specific because that limits the possibilities when the characters start moving again. but just fyi I chose the name because...Occam's Razor is all about rational thinking, about deciding in a scientific manner what is 'real' and what isn't and the Heart is all about intuition. The coupling of the two reminds me of Willow and Tara. of course, I'm saying this like I thought this out beforehand when really it was a complete accident. heh. or more likely, my subconscious brain putting things together.

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While we don't know much about Tara, there is an essence of her character that comes through despite how few lines she had and how few people she got to interact with.

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exactly. and i think that's what makes Tara such a challenge to write because there really isn't much Canon to work from. there's a lot of implied backstory, but that's all open to interpretation (thus the wide spectrum of Tara's on the Pens).



and that brings me to...

texanzeppo wow did you step into it. although I'm not going to get into a debate because I'm not sure it's appropriate here (this is a fic thread after all, try DMW's canon vs. fandom thread if you really want to take this all the way) and as I've pointed out before, I'm a writer not a debater.



I will say this (because I think it does relate directly to tempus fugit), you repeatedly assert things about Tara as fact that simply aren't. Canon Tara is extremely limited. there are very few things that can be said about her in a literal reading of the show. for example this

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Tara- due to her extreme shyness and lack of experience with deep relationships -would tend to idolize (just a little bit) the woman who opened up a whole new world to her

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we don't know anything about Tara's former relationships. she could have been in 15 intimate sexual relationships with girls and boys before she met Willow (thus the introduction of 'Aly' in TF S4). there is no canon to draw from on this issue. just because it's not said in the limited screentime Tara received does not mean it doesn't exist. and I think it's dangerous (and maube even a little insulting to us shy people) to equate shyness with weakness and inexperience. they aren't always the same thing.



there is also the issue of her family. the only things we know from canon are that her mother is dead, her father told her she was a demon and he and her brother came to take her home so she could 'take care of them'. everything else is implied, meaning it's open to a million interpretations. and that's what we have here: very different interpretations of Tara's essence and backstory and no amount of angry posts or defensive arguments is going to change anyone's internal vision of who the true Tara is. if you disagree with her portrayal in certain fics I think the best thing you can do is write your own version of Tara. there's plenty of room on the Pens and there's no better way to share your vision.





again with the love for all the Kittens.



xomel

Edited by: lipkandy at: 6/8/03 12:11 pm

[TexanZeppo256]

Quote: tommo

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Ruth- you keep talking about a true Tara, and about how the fics somehow surpass in their characterizations of Tara the veracity of her character as displayed on BtVS. I should remind you that there IS a difference between adding onto her essence and completely overhauling it!

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I was just trying to say that no one can really know what the true Tara is like because there IS no true Tara. We can only shape our image of what Tara is like to something that most kittens can aggree with. We can never really get to know Tara because she only exists in other universes. Writers like lipkandy can write the character of Tara and make her personality match fairly closely with what we saw on BtVS, and she can write Tara reacting to situations very believably, and I admire that.

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I think I was a little confused when reading the two above quotes. I agree with you wholeheartedly on there being a difference between adding to the essence of Tara's character and overhauling it completely. But then, I think that's a necessary evil in the world of fandom sometimes. Hence the appearance of "uberfics", or AU fics that offer a changed or altered perception of who a person is, or might have seemed to be in the show.



However, you make the point that a writer can add onto the "essence" of Tara's character, and then you go on to say that there is no true Tara. So which is it? Either writers get her character right, or they don't. And from what I can summise here, you're actually saying that no writer can do this, because the true nature of Tara's character is something that doesn't exist. You appear to contradict yourself slightly, which is, I'm sure, an oversight on your part.

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It was an oversight, actually. As witchpunk indicated earlier, I did not take the greatest of care in analyzing my thoughts -on paper OR in my mind- with the first post. While I was writing the first post, the thought had yet to occur to me that my version of a true Tara is just as invalid as anyone else's. In my second post, I did realize that little point, and therefore tried to temper my response so as to take that into account.



Therefor, when I said that "there is a difference between adding onto and completely overhauling Tara's essence", what I was really saying was "there's a difference between adding onto and completely overhauling what I think is Tara's essence." I realize this was unfair of me, and I apologize duely.



Quote: tommo

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As for the existence of a true characterisation; I'd like to suggest the notion that perhaps the person who created Tara had a bloody good idea of what her true personality was. Just a suggestion, mind. I'm not saying I know what was in Joss Whedon's mind when he created Tara; nor am I saying that Amber Benson knows everything there is to know about Tara. But generally, nobody knows the character like the person who gave it to the world (and by this, I mean any world) in the first place. Again, that's my stance as a writer. I would take to task anyone who suggested I didn't know Cerys in Touchstone better than anyone else.

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You'll have to excuse me, I should explain myself more thouroughly: I am a believer in the "many worlds" theory- where there are an almost infinite number of parallel universes to our own that can be only as different as the direction of a single photon, and as completely dissimilar as an entire reality that is no more than a pre-Big Bang clump of matter and energy. Because of this, I believe that there is also a universe where Tara actually DOES exist in real life. When I say that no one can possibly know what the true Tara is like, I mean to say that no one can possibly know the personality of the Tara that actually exists because she is in another universe(s).



Quote: tommo

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What I don't admire is when people like Ruth have the audacity to look at lipkandy's vision of what Tara is like and state unequivacably "That's the true Tara! Tara (whom I can't possibly know on any sort of level) acts just like that!" just because it happens to match their vision of Tara. (Sorry if that sounded harsh Ruth, I know that I did the same thing too, but that's kinda how I feel.)

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That's okay, if you feel that way. I wouldn't exactly describe my summation of Tara's character as "audacious", but hey, there you go. However, considering that you don't know an awful lot about me, or my history or involvement with either the show or writing about the show, I do think it's somewhat of a leap to come to the conclusion that it's audacious of me to assume I know anything about Tara's character. I was merely stating my views as I saw them; given my history with reading and interpreting fiction on many kinds of levels. But like I said, you don't really know me very well, so maybe you just got offended at the way my mind works when I'm reading fiction. I do apologise for that.

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Again, see my "many worlds" theory. You're right- I don't know you. And please don't get me wrong- I do admire you: you actually have the cojones to sit down and write out how Tara might act in certain scenarios. That's a lot more than I can say of myself. However, I accuse your summation as being audacious because -unless you just happen to have a trans-dimensional portal- there is no way that you can be able to go to the world where Tara is real, have a cup of joe with her and memorize her manerisms. I'm not saying that you don't have the capability to write what YOU believe Tara is like- I'm only saying that there is no universal Tara that is fundamentally true.



Does that make any sense?



Quote: tommo

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To suggest that I don't know Tara on any kind of level is a little offensive. But it certainly makes me want to go back and rework all my fanfic so far; I'm wondering now if I ever came close to writing a passable characterisation of Tara. Maybe I didn't. I just can't tell. Nobody's ever levelled that kind of criticism at me before so it's refreshing to reassess what I do here on Pens and also what I say in terms of me having no clue at all about the people I include in my fic, heh heh.

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Once again, I say "know Tara" in the context of having actuall comunication with the real girl so as to describe to the rest of us what she's truely like. I'm not saying that you don't have a very clear picture of what Tara should be like- quite the contrary. I have read some of your works -Final Exam being paramount- and I believe that you characterize Tara fairly well. I did not mean at all to say that you should completely overhaul your fics just because you -like everyone else, myself included- can't personally know the Tara that does exist because she only exists in another universe(s)!



Uggh... open mouth, insert foot, suck until swallowed.



Quote: tommo

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in the begining of their relationship, Tara- due to her extreme shyness and lack of experience with deep relationships -would tend to idolize (just a little bit) the woman who opened up a whole new world to her.

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Well, I can see your point; it's a valid one, I suppose. But I would tend to disagree. If anything, I think the hero-worship would probably come from Willow. I mean, when it comes down to it, who opened up a whole new world of experience to whom? I would suggest that it was perhaps Tara who was the catalyst for Willow experiencing emotions and situations that she'd hitherto never considered a part of her life. But again, this is my opinion. I've been wrong before (see above).

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Well, this is also MY opinion, but I seem to remember... huh. Well that's odd. I thought Tara said in "Tough Love"(BtVS 5.19) that she'd never been in a relationship as deep as hers was with Willow, but apparantly they were talking about magick. Oh well. I no longer have any evidence to support what I was going to say. Thhpppt. Oh well. It made sense at the time...



Quote: tommo

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Also, on a humorous point, you point out here that Tara has had a lack of experience with deep relationships. But you stated above that Tara is a character whom none of us know on any level. So how can you state this with confidence if we're all just guessing at who she is? Surely, to say something like that would involve having some kind of knowledge of her character and personality and, most importantly, her history. I'm wondering what would make you more qualified to assert this than anybody else who has offered feedback in this thread? Are you Joss Whedon in disguise?

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Did you know that's the second time somebody has asked me if im JW in disguise? I dunno. Maybe I'm split personality disorder. It figures- I DO have bipolar-mainia syndrome. Maybe I'm a schitzo too. But you're right, I don't know what Tara is like. I only have a picture of her in my head that acts certain ways.



I really just have a problem with the word true. I hear it overused all the time and it really pisses me off. Anyway...



BTW, where's a link to that fic in your sig, Welcome To The Cheesemouth? It sounds kinda odd and possibly humorous.



Quote: lipkandy

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I will say this (because I think it does relate directly to tempus fugit), you repeatedly assert things about Tara as fact that simply aren't. Canon Tara is extremely limited. there are very few things that can be said about her in a literal reading of the show. for example this

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Tara- due to her extreme shyness and lack of experience with deep relationships -would tend to idolize (just a little bit) the woman who opened up a whole new world to her

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is just an untenable argument. we don't know anything about Tara's former relationships. she could have been in 15 intimate sexual relationships with girls and boys before she met Willow. there is no canon to draw from on this issue. just because it's not said in the limited screentime Tara received does not mean it doesn't exist. and I think it's dangerous (and kind of insulting to us shy people) to equate shyness with weakness and inexperience. they are quite simply not the same thing.

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You're quite right: it was an untenable argument. I tried to verify it above, but then I fell flat on my ass in the attempt. As such, I apologize for going quite off the deep end.



However, I too know what its like to be shy. Granted, I'm not nearly as shy as I was a few years ago, but I still remember it with much vividness, and you'll have to excuse me, but I DO equate shyness with weakness and inexperience, because I considered MYSELF weak and inexperienced. In some ways I still am. But that's beside the point, and I don't know you OR Tara, so I fully reserve any judgement on you, Tara, and anyone else until I actually meet them (if ever). Please forgive my snobby-ness.

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T: Ego tam aberraveram...

W: Te repperi. Semper te reperiam.



(Translated from "The Gift")

Edited by: TexanZeppo256 at: 6/8/03 12:08 pm

[Warduke]

Ok guys, you've all had a say in this, but since this is lipkandy's thread for her fic, if any of you guys want to talk more about "the real Tara" then please do it in the W/T: Canon vs. Fandom thread, or by IM/email.

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Lil' Trevor : Always the life of the party.

[tommo]

Hey TexanZeppo; thanks for responding in such an admirable manner. Much to talk about here...

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Because of this, I believe that there is also a universe where Tara actually DOES exist in real life. When I say that no one can possibly know what the true Tara is like, I mean to say that no one can possibly know the personality of the Tara that actually exists because she is in another universe(s).

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Okay, firstly, I do want to make it clear that I'm not dispelling your theories on different realities. In fact, I do find that kind of theorising infinitely fascinating, although I'm far from being a scientist and readily admit to knowing nothing about quantam physics, or whatever it is one must know about to talk confidently about universes or realities. I think most of what I've ever written proves that, heh.



However, the thing that concerned me here is that you're theorising about a fictional character. Tara may seem as real to you and me as our friend, as a member of our extended family, or even as someone we hold close to our hearts. But the basic truth of the matter (and I know I'm using that word that you hate again) is that she's fundamentally not real. Not in this universe, nor in any other. She was the product of someone else's mind. And without getting into existentialist thought patterns or ideas, I don't think you can expect anyone to agree with you when you say that there is a real Tara out there somewhere. In fiction, undoubtedly. In the history and legacy of the show; absolutely. But not in our plane of existence. And honestly, that's what I'm talking about here.

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However, I accuse your summation as being audacious because -unless you just happen to have a trans-dimensional portal- there is no way that you can be able to go to the world where Tara is real, have a cup of joe with her and memorize her manerisms. I'm not saying that you don't have the capability to write what YOU believe Tara is like- I'm only saying that there is no universal Tara that is fundamentally true.

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I do understand what you are saying. But you're talking as though Tara is a real person. She's not. She might appear real, but you know, I don't believe for one minute that she's flesh and blood. I'm sorry if this makes me any less of a Willow/Tara shipper, or if it makes me a "Buffy lover", but for me, there are hundreds of different Tara's who exist in fiction. But only in fiction. And fictional worlds, by their very nature, are not real. I think that's part of the reason why we enjoy them so much.



Besides, what we were originally discussing here was the use of my word "true". You're absolutely right when you say that lipkandy's version of Tara was true to me. It's just that a few other people appeared to agree with me on that point, not that I would assert the notion of "majority rule" at all in this instance. But it was a nice, comforting feeling to have somewhat of a shared vision with a writer that I have come to admire greatly. It made me feel good, and I'm sure that it didn't exactly bring on the pain for lipkandy, either. The analysis of the word true, as used, and it would seem, erroneously so, by myself, is really a moot point. You didn't like so; you said it; let's move on.

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I believe that you characterize Tara fairly well.

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Well this, fortunately, isn't a discussion of my writing prowess, or lack thereof. But thanks anyway. Good to know.



The argument in Tough Love (which I think is the part of the episode you're referencing) is about two things; Willow's use of magic, and the future of their relationship. I realise I'm boiling this down to it's simplest thrust, so I do apologise for anyone who wants to pick holes in my theory here.



In that argument, Tara's concern is that Willow will somehow "stop" being gay and leave her. It's Willow who says that she's never fallen in love with a woman before. In fact, if we were to throw ourselves into an imaginative interpretation of the argument, it wouldn't be too far-fetched to suggest that perhaps Tara's experienced this before, and that she has been involved with a woman who's left her for a man. I don't know. That's just my take on it. I could be wrong, and hey, if I am, at least I'm doing it with plenty of extraneous rambling.

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I really just have a problem with the word true. I hear it overused all the time and it really pisses me off.

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I hardly ever hear it, in all honesty. But I do think we're getting down to the brass tacks of your argument. It doesn't seem to be so much the characterisation that you're disputing, or my reaction to it. It's rather the language I used to describe my reaction to that characterisation. I'm sorry if my wording offended you then, in that case. I shall aim to be more careful in the future and perhaps be more specific about what I mean when I use words like "true".

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BTW, where's a link to that fic in your sig, Welcome To The Cheesemouth? It sounds kinda odd and possibly humorous.

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Heh; that's not a fic. It's just something I made up for my sig line. Although I am starting to wonder whether I wouldn't be better off writing about cheese...



Thanks for your viewpoints, TexanZeppo. Interesting reading, for sure.



ETA: Sorry Brian, I think we must have posted at the same time. I didn't see yours until after I posted mine. Apologies. Also, apologies if this discussion has derailed the fic thread. Sorry for that.



Delete where necessary, I guess.

"To make you a vampire they have to suck your cheese. And then you have to suck their cheese. It's like a whole big cheese thing." ~ Welcome To The Cheesemouth

Edited by: tommo at: 6/8/03 1:22 pm

[Warduke]

That's ok, but from this point on, take it to the other thread, or IM/email.

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Lil' Trevor : Always the life of the party.

Edited by: Warduke at: 6/8/03 1:27 pm

[darkmagicwillow]

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this fic began with the idea that the Heart would function very much like it did in the S4 version, with Buffy and Willow jumping around to different events in Willow's past that she wanted to revisit (with Tara) with dangerous results, but as soon as I put the redhead with the blonde, she let me know in no uncertain terms that she wasn't going anywhere. and that she was powerful enough to break the Heart and stay there.

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I love learning how people's ideas and stories developed, and I found this particularly interesting because as I was reading that part of the story, I had this deep feeling of hurt because Willow was going to lose Tara again as the Heart carried her away and I wanted to dig in my heels and stay there. I didn't want to read the next chapter only to see them torn apart again, but then they weren't because Willow did dig in her heels and refused to go with the Heart, staying with her heart instead.

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Occam's Razor is all about rational thinking, about deciding in a scientific manner what is 'real' and what isn't and the Heart is all about intuition. The coupling of the two reminds me of Willow and Tara. of course, I'm saying this like I thought this out beforehand when really it was a complete accident.

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I noticed the irony in the artifact's name when I first read it, but I hadn't thought of the W/T connection. I know what you mean about accidents--I didn't really understand the Heart in my own story until almost the end.



Hmmm....you know, in a way Occam's Razor is about intuition too, the idea that the world works according to the simplest explanation is attractive yet not rational, but that's ironic as well, since when does the Heart follow the simplest path to its desires?

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"Omnia mutantur, nihil interit." -- "Everything changes, but nothing is truly lost."