Goddess!

[inlerf]

short quick question:

when did w/t start using "Goddess, blaaaah" when not chanting spells (as in people going "OMG!") Many fics I've read go "Goddess!" (instead of "Good God!" or whatever) but i don't think i've ever seen it happen on the show... correct me?

[the hero factor]

I've seen this come up at another board, and someone said that Willow only said it once, sometime in s7. I don't remember it myself, but then, I wasn't paying very close attention. I don't think Tara ever said it in canon.

So, yeah, it seems like pretty much a fanon thing to me. I won't go so far as to say it bothers me, but it does kinda take me out of a fic a bit. I tend to just ignore it.

[cammy]

id guess most do it to show that shes into wicca hence the usage of goddess

[inlerf]

by the saying it once in S7 would be after she had cast the spell and "Oh. My. Goddess." ?

it just bothers me quite a bit that some pple's W/T exclaim "Goddess!" instead of the usual "My God!" or whatever (I heart Tara's "Good God!" - aha, so cute).

[DaddyCatALSO]

When I'm doing a fic, I generally have them "swear" with the names of Greek or Keltic deities.

[inlerf]

why

[urnofosiris]

Why not. There are a lot of things we did not get to see on that show, like say their first kiss, and a lot we did get to see that we could have done without. I don't recall Willow saying oh my god either, but whatever. If I do not like what a fanfic writer has WT say or do, I have the fortunate option to not read their fic.

[inlerf]

isn't a question of 'why not' than a curiosity in the mind process of writing.

willow does say omg i think.

[AmbersSecretAdmirer]

Okay, I am going to dare to say that this may be a complete non-issue.

Personally, what a person allows Willow and Tara to say in their fiction is their perogative. As long as the emotions and characteristics are maintained and strengthened, the words are almost meaningless.

With regards to swearing, I have read fic where Willow and Tara say things they never said on Buffy (no one could, cos of network restrictions on language). As for cursing using other deity names rather than the generic one, why not? It allows a little show that the characters are not of the major religions. Small, but valid. Besides, canon didn't do Willow and Tara any favours so if writers on this board want to add their own quirk to the loverwiccas, so be it.

So, really, is this really such an issue that requires a thread for someone to ask and others to justify their inclusion of same? I just think this a non-issue really.

[Katharyn]

As others have pointed out canon did the girls no favours. Nor does canon show everything in (or enough of) their lives.

Personally, I use Goddess in my current fic but I'm not certain I did in my previous ones. This time it fits in though.

OMG never feels quite right to me with the characters as they've developed and I'm too lazy to look up or create something else. It'd take just as long to set up as Goddess itself has.

I can see why it can take some people out of a fic for a moment, lots of things can do that, but the answer here for me is similar to the answer I gave in a "Sex!" thread on beta pens. You have to earn what you write.

If you show how a character develops to a certain point (for example being heavily enough into Wicca to say Goddess) then you can use it. It's only an issue if you jar the reader out of the fic because they don't believe it for the characters as you've presented them.

For example in my fic Tara has always said "Goddess" whereas for Willow, coming later to Wicca etc, it's a more recent thing more likely picked up from living with Tara than anything else.

People pick up new things to say all the time.

Earn it properly, let the reader see 'why', and you can have them say "Oh King Kong" every time if you like.

If it feels right in your fic then it is right in your fic. If you start to second guess yourself too much then you'll never get anything written at all.

Katharyn

[inlerf]

i never did intend to make this an issue, and even if i did, it would be a personal little thing not meant to be "justified". it is, after all, my opinion. i merely wanted confirmation if such a term was used in canon. and i'm sure threads of lesser importance/meaning were started but shrugs.

and yes i agree what a writer wants their w/t to say is, of course, in their control since they're in his/her fic and if i don't like it there is the cute X button right there.

it just irks me to some extent when a not bad or even good story throws in several "Goddess!"s when their storyline is based straight off S6/tight with canon and non AU. it isn't shown how they can suddenly switch from their "normal" speech pattern or whatever but that's just me. as what Katharyn said, if it's done properly and logically (with explanations, preferably), no one would have any problem with anything (for example, on btvschosen i absolutely embrace the writer's version of tara's history etc). simply dislike it when a char veers too far from canon and the writer doesn't tell us how that came about.

to use Katharyn's example, if say tara finds king kong very turn-on ish and the writer tells us that and makes Willow go "Oh King Kong" every few paragraphs, i can take that.

[a willow angel]

Personally, I like the use of 'Goddess' in fanfic.
Maybe it's just me, but if i'm reading a fic and someone says 'Goddess', even without building it up, it feels natural. I mean Willow and Tara were witches and during a lot of spells they called for a blessing of a Goddess.
They called for more Goddesses than Gods, so really it's more logical, to me.

Unless ofcourse the fic is completely AU, and Willow and Tara are not associated with magic whatsoever, and they're ...I don't know space cadets (I've never read one where they are, but for the sake of an example..) Then it would be kind of...out of the blue, but still wouldn't bother me enough to make me stop reading the story.

In a way though, I love how fans adopted that saying. I think it allows the fanfictional characters to grow from their canon bounds.

[Dana5140]

This is, of course, a discussion with a much wider presence- that of fanfic in general. I am reading here the discussion about the use of the term "goddess, " which really was little to no part of the program as shown on tv. But that has not stopped many writers from using the term in their writing. And so we have a debate here as to those that like it and those that don't. For me, a similar argument can be made with regard to Tara and Willow's sexuality. I do not like and will not read fanfic where the two use various devices and accoutrements for sex- because they never had that kind of of experience as depicted in the program. They were both pretty chaste in reality, and only with each other did they begin to really explore mature sexuality. I do recognize that fanfic serves many purposes, so I take no issue with writings such as the ones I describe here. I just choose not to read them, for they do not fit in with my experience of those two ladies. I think we all have pet loves and hates with regard to writing, and the beauty is that there is enough variety to keep everyone happy. (My other pet dislikes: AU, crossovers- ie, WIllow and Herminoe Granger). Really, what I like are stories that explore the lived experiences of Willow and Tara in the milieu that they live; for me, a story set in high school with Tara would be of great interest.

[Katharyn]

Interesting points Dana, though I am wondering if this whole thread should have been in Beta Pens now *S*

On the subjects you mentioned once ahain I think it comes back to what breaks the reality for a reader and some of those things for me are pretty much the same for me as they seem to be for you. AU crossover to Startrek or Harry Potter etc never really appeals to me and I can't comment on the quality as I just don't tend to read them. I am sure I am missing some really good writing! That said there are also some 'canon based' W/T fics around where the names fit but the characters just don't.

Very often that seems to be linked back finding reasons for the girls to have sex... often with accoutrements as you put it. My pet peeve really would be stories where the tone is serious, its moster of the week, it needs to be killed.

But lets stop and have the kinkiest sex scene (and the fifth one this episode) the writer can think up.

Have fun, write humourous or PWP fics. Great! But for me to keep reading if your going to say it's serious, don't just use it as a structure to write a smut-fic. At least be honest and admit what it is. Some people write smut beautifully, and have a lot of fun with it. But asking me as a reader to believe that T/W in the midst of a crisis will stop to have (lots of) wild sex whereever and whenever they can... no I'm not buying in. That's not the girls (at least unless you show me why - and even then) To me that's just two sex addicts a writer is giving the relevant names.

It definitely comes back to tone for it to work for me - how you create and use it and then what that lets you do. If the tone is serious then the girls have to behave seriously (at least in the crisis times.) In humourous or admitted smut fics.. have at it as Giles would say!

Luckily we can all use the little X in the top corner if we need to, and luckily there are always readers who will enjoy it, and that's what matters to a writer. Finding the audience who does appreciate it. I know for a fact that there are readers who hated the tone of my fic... fair play to them, it happens.

PS... Not referring to any fic I was aware of being posted on this board here *S* More some stuff I was asked to beta for other boards a long time ago. For example the girls in leather, in a restaurant, in front of people... with accoutrements. I kid you not. And no, before anyone scrambles off to find it - I don't know where/if it was posted *S*

Katharyn

[DaddyCatALSO]

It's fundamental, I think , to keep a sense of the characters as they have existed. Just using a name is dead easy.
Of course, we all see W&T thru our own lenses, so "Believeable" for one person isn't always for4 another.

[Dana5140]

Good points, Katharine and DCA. I am very careful not to denigrate any fanfic; I am not one with the ability or energy to write one, so I appreciate the efforts of those that do, even if they present a concept that I have no interest in. I recognize that we were given so little of Willow and Tara's internal lives together, including their sex life, that fanfic serves the purpose of filling in that blank. I go back to the writing of someone like Garner, who has done a wonderful job in presenting Tara's interior monologues over the course of Hush to NMR- we get a sense of who she is, and this at times includes her comments on sex, whether with Willow or alone. And I feel it is appropriate, as part of Tara's lived experience. The sex is integral to the story, but not its rationale for existing. Some smut-fic (thanks for the term!) exists more to serve the needs of the writer than of the audience, and some is designed to tittilate or project into Willow and Tara the writer's own experiences or desires. And some is just for fun- and all is welcome by some. I have my likes here just as I do with music or with the books I read or the TV I watch.

Off topic, I just had to say this- and I have little clue if this is not an allowable subject since it concerns an actor and not a role, but Iyari Limon has come out as bisexual and is involved with a woman DJ, and has been for the past year. Afterellen has the interview with her and it is very detailed.

[DaddyCatALSO]

Hmmm, ...Dana, I noticed you avoided saying anything about mine
.

And I was wondering when the "Full" interview was coming up;I'd already seen the teaser.

[Dana5140]

"Cause yours are smut! Just kidding! :-)

The full interview is indeed up and runs to 6 web pages.

[inlerf]

Goddess, now i'll be waiting for amber/aly to come out as bi. (not much hope for the latter though... :/)

[Dana5140]

But apparently much hope for the former? :-)

[inlerf]

just mucher.

[a willow angel]

Off topic, I just had to say this- and I have little clue if this is not an allowable subject since it concerns an actor and not a role, but Iyari Limon has come out as bisexual and is involved with a woman DJ, and has been for the past year. Afterellen has the interview with her and it is very detailed.

Oh wow!! I wasn't much of a fan of her character, only for obvious reasons, ie. Willow belongs with Tara. But I have nothing against Iyari at all. And I'm rather thrilled that she has come out!! I wonder if it has anything to do with kissing Alyson all that time on set...
*scampers off to read the interview*

[DaddyCatALSO]

Dana:

Cause yours are smut! Just kidding! :-)

Too true, too true. Well, "Old Marrieds" is 2/3s inner monologues but that's not posted yet....

[Garner]

I noticed this thread a while back and was just to busy to give my own perspective on the 'Goddess' issue. I have Tara say that quite a bit in my journal story and for me it felt like something Tara would say. She didn't say so in the show, BUT, in the comic BlessedWannabe by Amber and Chis Golden Tara does use the 'Goddess' exclamation and I always thought that felt right for her deeper appreciation and exposure to Wicca. Willow is not that religious and sees Wicca more as witchcraft than a belief system, so I don't think it is something she would say. But for Tara it seemed appropriate and I figured if Amber could do it, it probably fit. The show only had so much time for Willow and Tara, and there was a lot that we never saw about them and this seemed like something that fit in that category. Of course how each author portrays Tara or Willow will be different and that's good. It shows us different ways different people perceived them. Though I will confess to not being a smut fic fan and was somewhat reluctant to get graphic myself, though I have nothing against smut fic. Everyone has their own tastes.

As for LL, I am surprised she came out, given what she said about playing opposite Willow in Season Severed I would not have expected this. Nothing against her, just her character. I hope she does well personally.

Garner

[Dana5140]

It works real well in your story, Garner, because in part it is nearly always part of Tara's interior monologuye as written in her journal. It is not so much something that she repeatedly vocalizes. And your point about Willow is well taken; to Willow, magic is a tool rather than a way of life, and therefore the more "religious' parts of it would not be something she would take note of. But it infuses Tara and is part of who she is.

As for Iyari, more power to her. I cannot believe it will have any effect on her career, and in any event, she seems to have other career aspirations beyond acting. I am sort of tickled by her choice to go to culinary school; I am married to a professional chef who owned her own catering business for many years. Um, I sort of eat well every night, if not too much! :-)

[billy]

There's not exactly a huge number of actors prepared to come out so they must think it will have some effect on their careers. I know that some gay actors feel that coming out may have resulted in them losing work and I remember Amber saying she wasn't sure if playing a lesbian had damaged her career, but didn't care if it had.

[Dana5140]

To be pragmatic, billy, I don't think Iyari is a well known enough actor for it to really matter. And as it stands, she is still getting the work she wants.

[Wolfy_willow]

One two three four, kick the argument out that door, five six seven eight no matter what Willow and Tara are Great!!

Whoooo

~ ~ ~

Fanfic is a way people express, i use Goddess when i write just because it fits with my story's most of the time. <~~~Nerd. But i understand where your coming from. I used it once and liked how it sounded and kept it in my fanfic story's. ::shrugs::

I still likly anyways. :-) O my god or Goddess Good fanfic is Good fanfic

<3 InMyDreamsWillow (EF)