Discussion S5E20 Spiral

[Kirk B]

Spike might not officially be a part of the Scoobies, but now that even Xander is starting to treat him with a little less open hostility than usual, things are starting to get interesting.

I'd like to see Angel show up about now, and see how he would react to Buffy and the others relying on Spike.

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Kirk B

"A Willow is a tree that weeps, but Tara is firmer and will hold.”

Hear that baby? You're my always.

[dreadpirateemily]

Kirk, that would be really cool. I'd love to see an exhausted Buffy justifying her choices to Angel. (with Spike lurking just around the corner, with a big smirk on his face.)

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"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning."
Catherine Allard

[Kieli]

quote:

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Originally posted by Roxton:
Given everything that Spike has been through and all he has done for Buffy the poor guy definitely deserves a break.

Kieli I have to agree with you, it did seem that Dru was trying to give him back his confidence as a killer, although given his reluctance to drink I have to wonder if Spike has reached a point where he could never return to his old ways.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 11, 2001).]

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That was something that I had been thinking about for quite a while. Given that somehow, Buffy reminds him of his love lost before he became a vampire....of the chance he wish he had to get the girl of his dreams and she shot him down. I think a good part of his evil is the deep hurt he still feels over being rejected so long ago by that heartless woman and being rejected again by Buffy now. I think he's grown in that he seems to be realising that being a Big Bad isn't all it's cracked up to be. Even Dru turned on him when he needed her most. I think he still has this deep seated need to belong to someone, some group, to feel a part of anything that will have him. It's about as human as you can get. *S*

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"My heart doesn't stutter."--Amber in WBBquote:

[Roxton]

Kieli I think that is one reason Spike was so touched by Joyce's death. He appreciated the way she treated him and he made this feeling clear when Xander questioned his motives in Forever. As Spike said " I liked the lady. Understand, monkey boy? She was decent. Didn't put on airs. Always had a nice cuppa for me… And she never treated me like a freak.".

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 11, 2001).]

[Kieli]

Rox: Agreed *S*

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"My heart doesn't stutter."--Amber in WBB

[smelly cheese]

Going back to the Ben/Glory morph thing again for a second, I wonder if Buffy and the Scoobies are going to remember that they saw the morph, or if it was just Dawn that forgets, and how they're going to explain *that* one. Or if they all forget again, how are they ever going to know what heppened?

[Roxton]

I'm sure that both Buffy and the Scoobies will not forget seeing Ben transform into Glory. If anything Buffy will blame herself for not picking up on the connection sooner and revealing their location to Ben.

[imperfectly]

quote:

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Originally posted by smelly cheese:
I wonder if Buffy and the Scoobies are going to remember that they saw the morph, or if it was just Dawn that forgets?

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I was wondering that myself. If only Dawn forgets that might be an important plot involving her powers. Also, it might suggest a link between her and Ben (since they are both innocents trapped to something else). If they all forget, well that’s gonna be trouble. I can’t wait to see how it all irons out.

As far as Spike goes, it’s amazing how they’ve made his character change. I feel genuine empathy for him – ah yes, the universal theme of unrequited love. Once someone shows they can care for someone else more than themselves, it’s hard to think of them as pure evil. I’m glad Buffy seems to be acknowledging his change, and usefulness, as well.

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“Sassy eggs.”quote:

[Dazey]

quote:

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Originally posted by xita:
Speaking of Knights, who is their god? Are they christian? They wear crosses but they do not look familiar.

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I've been wondering that, too. They seem to use the word "God" as a proper name, leading me to believe that it is the God of the Bible they speak of...and I'd be fascinated to know how he fits into the mythology of the Buffyverse. Is he real in the same way as Thespia, or Glory for that matter? The Knights seem to think so. Is he just another god among gods, or is he unique somehow? Given the effect of the cross on vampires, we know he has some power. I doubt we'll see these questions answered, though...too much potential for real world trouble.

Speaking of crosses, though, the ones worn by the clerics are Greek crosses. This seems appropriate; if they are "of Byzantium" and Christian then they are probably affiliated in some way with the "Byzantine" Church (which can refer either to all of the Eastern Churches as a whole or to the Greek Orthodox Church specifically).

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"She's my everything."quote:

[BBOvenGuy]

The spoiler rumors that have been running around suggest that the gang forgets they saw Ben turn into Glory. If it's anything like what happened to Dawn before, they'll still remember that Glory was there and that Glory took Dawn away - they just won't be able to figure out where Ben went, which really isn't that important in the grand scheme of things anyway. They still know they have to find Glory, and they still know they need to kill the human host in order to kill Glory. If they find Glory then sooner or later the human host Ben will appear, regardless of whether the gang remembers it's him or not.

As for the Knights, I got the impression that they were some kind of throwback ultra-conservative Christian offshoot. The crosses looked to me like a "Crusaders' Cross," which would track with the Eastern Orthodox church since it split off from the Catholic Church around the same general time (give or take a century) as the Crusades. In this light, the Knights are more like "scary religious people" with a role-playing-game obsession rather than any actual Christians, so questions about their god aren't quite as controversial.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

[This message has been edited by BBOvenGuy (edited May 11, 2001).]

[tvsurfer]

I have to disagree, I don't think you can easily write the knights off as a fanatical christian off shoot of the eastern orthodox church and thus lessen the issue of "God" and the moral delema JW has set up here.

my reasoning on this is that

like slayers and watchers, the knights and priests were presented as 'honorable men' of an ancient order, who have dedicated their lives to saving the world from destruction
and they both do this working hand in hand with the symbols of a judeo-christian God.

I think to call knights and priests (who use christian trappings like crosses, prayers, and rosaries to help them in their quest) fanatics from an ancient times, for clinging to their single minded goal to save the world from chaos and destruction

then one opens the door to calling slayers and watchers (who use christian trappings like crosses and holywater as well as magic) fanatics from ancient times, clinging to their single minded goal to save the world from chaos and destruction and vamps
that would end the world

the watchers and slayers like the knights and priests share a common goal to protect humanity

Buffy is willing to ignore the fact that dawn is not a human born naturally to this world but rather is the result of some monks (who may well be misguided for all we know) spell.

She is willing to ignore the fact that all she knows of and feels for her sister are simply implanted memories/feelings from the monks spell
She is willing to ignore the fact that her spell made flesh sister is really just a key that can destroy all of humanity.

She is willing to ignore all that and has killed 10 men, 10 honorable real men not spell cast apparitions to keep dawn alive

The knights on the other hand are not willing to simply abandon their quest because the key has had a spell performed on it to give it human form
because it still has the power to destroy all of humanity

The issue is, what is best course of action?

buffy who is born to protect humanity, has now killed 10 times to protect a spell cast being with the power to destroy the world

The Knights would kill a child, no matter how it was brought into this world, for what it may do

neither buffy or the knights different in their goals, they wish to save the world and neither can be correct no matter what they do. In either case good people die.

[This message has been edited by tvsurfer (edited May 11, 2001).]

[Dr.G]

You cannot compare this slayer and this watcher, and not slayers and watchers in general with the knights. They are not the same, their methods are not the same.

The knights are fixated on one thing, kill the key at all costs, no matter who gets in their way, and no matter that the key is a child. This they are willing to do in order to save the world, and that justifies everything for them. They do not even stop to consider that they could *help* Buffy fight Glory. That there may be other ways to deal with this situation. Their first act towards Buffy was trying to kill her. How nice.

Buffy knows the world isn't made up of black and white, not all demons are evil that must be killed. She cannot destroy the key that is her sister, even if that act would save the world.

[Roxton]

My history is a bit rusty but does anyone else have the impression that The Knights of Byzantium are modeled after The Knights Templar.

[GODisTigger]

I can always count on Anya to make me laugh at least once. The Bugs Bunny reference and her smacking the knight with the frying pan were great. But something else I noticed this episode was her helping with Tara. When Buffy was fighting on top of the RV, it looks like she is trying to help keep Tara calm and then later she offers to try feeding her. Add the "You can sleep with me" from last episode and to me it looks as if she is starting to think of others more. Did that make ANY sense?

BTW, any lip readers out there? During the feeding scene you can see Tara say something. Was it REALLY something or just incoherent babbling? Kinda like this post.

D

[Wiccagrrl]

I've always liked Anya, but ever since "The Body" I've just been loving her. She has changed, and I think it was partly because of Joyce's death- having someone she knew die, thinking a bit more about her own mortality and her place on this earth, having bonded with the others after going through a shared loss. She just seems a lot more emotionally in tune to the others, and slightly less self-centered.

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[GODisTigger]

Self-centered!!!! THAT was the word I was looking for!!! ARRGH!!

D

[Dr.G]

Agreeing with GODisTigger and Wiccagrrl.
I have always liked Anya, and I think it is wonderful she is showing more concern for others. I have not seen this ep, but I did see her touch Tara's shoulder in one of the caps, and it just struck me as so sweet, esp. coming from her. I had meant to comment on it, but as usual the W/T scenes tend to distract me from the rest. Heh.

[BBOvenGuy]

tvsurfer, I think maybe you misunderstand the intent of some things that I say.

When I analyze stuff like in my last post about what the Knights of Byzantium are supposed to be, I'm trying to put myself in Joss's shoes and see where he's coming from. I'm not necessarily trying to say what's "right" and what's "wrong" or what issues should or shouldn't be explored on the show.

In the case of the Knights, I wasn't trying to "write them off." I was trying to figure out how Joss was presenting them. Look at it from the perspective of a TV show's Executive Producer - the Knights can only take up so much time on the screen, because there's all these regular characters to keep track of and they all have stories and emotions and the people who play them should be onscreen most of the time earning the money that they're being paid. It would be very nice to explore the complex origins of the Knights and the psychological and metaphysical forces which drive them - I'm not saying it's wrong to do that. But on a TV show there simply isn't time. Instead, you have to present the Knights as something the audience can identify in a short period of time e.g. fanatical Christian throwback-offshoots. If you're looking for the show to explore the Knights any deeper than that, you're probably going to be disappointed.

Lack of time for depth and detail is the greatest drawback of TV. That people like Joss, his cast and his crew can still create something of such quality is a testament to their superb artistic ability.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with fans going deeper with the issues the show appears to touch on, but I think such exploration is more rooted in the hearts and minds of the fans than in anything on the actual show. Which is fine - most fanfic is the same way.

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Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

[Anyalvr]

The difference between Buffy and the knights is that the knights don't care how many innocents they kill as long as they get rid of the Key. I kind of have to think that there is something a little "off" there in that they don't seem to GIVE a rat's ass who dies. They're in this war situation: they don't care who goes. Buffy spared the knight's life when he attacked her. She's never gone out and said so, but I think she feels bad for what she did to Faith, because Faith *was* a human, and different from a vampire or a demon. Buffy won't sacrifice innocent people to accomplish this goal. No matter how illustrious the ends are, the means DON'T justify killing Dawn. I don't think she'll sacrifice Ben in order to "win" the war, even though Ben is a murderer and tried to kill Buffy's mother.

Buffy didn't kill the knights maliciously, either. They went after her and her friends and she had to fight them in self-defense.

I am sad that so many people have no qualms about killing Dawn - a real, live person - in order to stop a supernatural enemy. Like it or not, she's a person, and I'm glad Joss has let Buffy hold this moral fortitude in this.
Buffy feels that you CAN'T just sacrifice an innocent person in order to win a war, to defeat an enemy. I am sad that so many Buffyphiles do not get this.

Also, Ben is not innocent. He summoned the Queller in order to kill crazy people and killed at least six people. We don't know why he did it except for the fact that he wanted the crazy people out of the way for some reason. He is a human being, though, and he shouldn't just be sacrificed.

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"I tried to be unlovable/why couldn't you do the same?"

-(jewel)

"Spank us 'til Tuesday! We promise to be bad if you do!"
-(drusilla, angel)

[GODisTigger]

You mean there is more to the show than W/T scenes?? Hmm, should I start paying attention?

D

[Wiccagrrl]

Ok, without getting too deeply back into the Ben/Queller Demon debate again, I think we do have a fairly good idea why Ben did it...to save his own sorry arse. Glory's victims could provide a link back to her, and potentially to him. (Note: I am not saying he was right in doing it...just that I believe this was his motivation. Personally, I think it was a despicable, cowardly, but probably desperate, act.)

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[Roxton]

Unfortunately Buffy may have no other option than to sacrfice Ben in order to defeat Glory and save Dawn. She was faced with a similar choice in the past when she had to sacrifice Angel, and even though she realized he had regained his soul she took the only course of action that was available to her.

As to Ben's motivation for summoning the Queller Demon, there is also the possibilty that Glory's victims are an intregal element of her escaping her human prison and just as the knight killed his comrade in order to prevent Glory from taking his heart Ben sacrificed her victims in an effort to thwart her plans.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 11, 2001).]

[tvsurfer]

BBOG
like you, I like to explore the elements of the stories presented and to the extent the producer/writers have commented on "principles" they wish to project with their stories, I will comment on if I feel they have hit their mark or not.

you wrote "I think maybe you misunderstand the intent of some things that I say."

My impression was that you were trying to dismiss the knights as a sterio-type/ fanatic religous cliche and thus down play the weight given the morality that would normally be ascribed to them and their christian "God" when viewed by a christian society like the US audience

I consider the use of steriotypes as a quick means to convey to an audience what/who a character (or grp) is, to be lazy writing/story telling and I don't consider JW etal lazy story tellers by any means.

If anything I oft find they like to work against steriotype with their characters.

and if there wasn't enough screen time for the nights to serve the purpose he intended for them, then I don't think he would have used them. All those men horses armor etc are very expensive for a show on a budget and if they didn't serve a greater purpose to the story than a fight scene, I don't think the money would have been spent

JW has made strong statements previously about how he views his hero and how he designed the vamps to end up "dust' rather than be bleeding corpses or faith to be injured rather than killed, all so as to protect the heroic image of buffy/ as someone who doesn't kill humans, just vamps and demons

so I think its appropriate if you are attempting to look at this eppie from JW's point of view, to try and determine why he would use christian knights in this manner or have buffy kill humans for the first time at this point in the story/under these circumatances

I mean it would have been just as easy for the knight to have said 'you injured 10 of my men' as it was for him to say 'you killed 10 of my men'. So why say she killed them?

whats the paradigm JW is after?

The watcher/slayers and priests/knights have exactly the same overall goal, to save the world from distruction, but their way of going after it is different

if you break it down, he has set up a very serious moral quandry that can place neither buffy or the knights totally in the right.

If the key is the means to end the world and its present manifestation is simply a magic spell complete with implanted group memories, then the knights quest to save the world by finding and destroying the key no matter what form it takes, is to them justified.

for the knights, Its not a teen girl, its a key under a spell and given its power needs to be destroyed at all costs

on the other hand if as buffy believes it may have once been a ball of energy but now it is a human, an innocent and therefore its right to live must be protected, even if it can destroy the world, then her actions to protect it are justified.

Its not just a energy ball under a spell, its a human with human rights and thus deserving of protection no matter what its potential

this situation is parelled with Ben/glory ben is a human male given life to imprison a godly force.

ben, like dawn, is a human with the potential to turn into something lethal to the world

its this moral quandry that I believe JW is trying to explore and that he will try and resolve in the 100th eppie.

Is dawn a human or a spell cast to shroud a lethal force in a manner so as to protect it from being killed

If one decides dawn is human and thus can't be killed even though it has deadly potential than does ben also get that benifit

and where does the humanities needs for security from potential lethal threats fit into this

I believe the knights like the innitative are there to force the test of the moral paradigms

[Dr.G]

I see your point Roxton, that may have been his motivations, but I still do not think there is *any* justification for what Ben did, those people were innocent, just as surely as Dawn is.

[Dr.G]

I don't think those knights would recognize moral if it walked up and kicked them in the arse. They have no scruples whatsoever. It is not "just" Dawn they are willing to sacrifice to reach their goal.

And it does not matter in who's name they fight their fight and to what end. They could have opted to help her, but they are absolutely unwilling to consider anything other than killing Dawn.

The fact that Buffy KILLED 10 of them in SELFDEFENSE does not make her any less of a hero.

What is so wonderful about this show is that things are not so clear cut. The hero does not wear a white hat. Buffy has her flaws, but killing these knights isn't one of them.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited May 12, 2001).]

[Roxton]

Garfield there is no question that these were innocent victims, nor is there any justification for what Ben did. However from his point of view he may have felt that he had no other choice than to take the action he did. Was it an easy decision for him to make, was he tormented by his actions, we don't know. What we do know is that he has dedicated his life to helping others and on at least two occasions he had the opportunity to kill Dawn which he didn't take. From Ben's perspective I don't think the situation is so black and white.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 12, 2001).]

[xita]

Well killing Dawn would not give Ben his selfish desire, which is to live without glory. Killing Dawn would not get Glory out of his body. I don't think not killing her proves anything about Ben. I do not have any information on Ben to make a wise decision, except that knowing what he knows he could end this whole nightmare very easily.

[Dr.G]

Point taken Roxton. It is not.

Editing to add: How Xita? Do you mean by Ben killing himself?

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited May 12, 2001).]

[xita]

Are you talking to Me?? .. me???? hmm.. yes

[This message has been edited by xita (edited May 12, 2001).]

[Roxton]

Killing Dawn would benefit Ben. Without the key Glory cannot escape and Glory escaping is the last thing that Ben wants to happen. He knows that once Glory escapes he ceases to exist so by killing Dawn he prevents this from happening and his own demise.

[This message has been edited by Roxton (edited May 12, 2001).]