The Kitten, the Witches and the Bad Wardrobe Willow & Tara Forever

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:26 am

I didn't notice any similarity between Sam and Tara. To me, Sam came across a lot like Warren's ex-girlfriend Katrina with a touch of Denise Richards from Starship Troopers and maybe some Claudia Christian from B5.

I too find it hard to believe that she could go from the Peace Corps to a Navy Seals/Special Ops type monster-fighting unit in just one year but, hey, its the Buffyverse. If magic and monsters are possible, I suppose that so is that.

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Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **mucifer** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 6:59 am

i enjoyed the willow parts of the episode. i enjoyed the end of the episode. a well written break up scene with buffy walking into the daylight away from the vamp. i just wish they didnt have so much "gee the military is sooo cool and romanitic" parts to the show. for me to put it politely it just made me want to vomit.

by **Hugin** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:33 am

One thing to consider about Sam and her military skills. The Peace Corps is not a conventional job. It tends to pull in a really eclectic group of people from all walks of life. These people have some skill or skills that makes them valauble to the Peace Corps, and the motivation to do this kind of work, but it's not like they went to college and majored in "Peace Corps". I personally know a paramedic, a cop, an aikido instructor and a big weird guy who repairs marine engines as his day job but does swordfighting and archery on the weekends who were Peace Corps volunteers.

What I'm saying is, while I honestly agree Sam was in some ways a Mary-Sue-ish, symbolic character, there's nothing to say she wasn't someone who already had martial arts or survival or military/police/firearms training who then volunteered for the Peace Corps for moral/social/political/spiritual reasons and then got caught up in all the supernatural monster stuff with Riley. I don't think the episode said one way or the other what her background was before life got weird, she may have already been fairly kickass. We don't know.

-len

by **Web Warlock** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 7:41 am

RE: Sam.

You too can join the Peace Corp and be killing demons and handing out friendly advice to almost complete strangers in one year or less!

Yeah she was a tad Mary Sueish, but I can forgive that. The way I see it maybe she was in the Peace Corp so she could make a difference, began see what Is Really Going On (tm) and decided that people need demons killed rather than bridges built.

Maybe she was in the Army before, on a GI Bill for college and went down to Central America to help in the Peace corp. Not unheard off.

Of course after she mentioned it I had Frank Zappa's "Peace Corp" song going through my head!
"...what's there to live for? Who needs the Peace Corp? I think I'll get real stoned!..."

anyway...

Warlock.

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Web Warlock
web.warlock@attbi.com webwarlock@planetadnd.com
Author, the Netbooks of Witches and Warlocks
The Other Side: http://www.xtreme-gaming.com/theotherside/
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The FanCC: http://www.enworld.org/fancc/
--
"What the hell is your problem?" - Ozzy Osbourne to me, Feb. 1996

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:41 am

Warlock,

We're Only In it For The Money is a fabulous album but you are dating yourself there.

"Hi boys and girls! I'm Jimmy Carl Black and I'm the Indian of the group!" LOL

Me goes away to listen to that LP, then The Mudshark Dancing Lesson, etc... on Fillmore East, June 1971 followed by the whole Overnite Sensation! Maybe I'll add Penguin In Bondage and Cheepnis too.

Zappa forever!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **tyche** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:41 am

quote:
I don't want to get involved in the Spike Wars, but I want to say that I do feel for the B/S shippers. Regardless of how any of us feels about B/S, we all know what it is to invest ourselves emotionally in a relationship...you'd think that would inform our reactions to B/Sers. You'd think.

Jenny, I have to disagree with you on this point.
Although this is an extremely popular board, and there are many other W/T sites, it's sometimes easy to forget that W/T is not nearly as popular as other ships - both canon and UC - in the Buffyverse. In terms of fic written/mailing lists/numbers of sites, I would say that the most popular ships are (in no particular order), B/S, Willow/Angel, B/A and Willow/Spike. However, it seems that, since the start of this particular Spike story arc, 95% of discussion in BtVS fandom revolves around Spike, his redemption and the B/S ship. The Cross and Stake is probably somewhat unrepresentative, but go there and try to find a post that isn't about Spike, B/S or Tara as the BSD. It might take you a while.
Now, although it's inevitable that it's the most vocal people who get the most attention on posting boards, I have to say that so many of the B/S folk I've encountered have zero respect for anybody else's point of view that my patience has worn very, very thin. Many boards have been completely flooded with posts bashing Buffy for ... errr ... trying to hold onto her sanity in 'As You Were' - because, as we all know, Spike does no wrong and Buffy does no right. (Read the general discussion thread on the WD if you don't believe me.) I find it downright disturbing that so many B/S shippers seem to dislike or even hate Buffy. And the whole B/S storyline has just given them ample fuel to paint Buffy as a black-hearted villainess and Spike as a sweet, tender-hearted puppy-hugger. Now, I know the above certainly doesn't apply to ALL B/S shippers, any more than it applies to all people who like the idea of Buffy/Xander or Buffy/Tito or Buffy/Halfrek or Buffy/Riley. But think about the W/T fan community. Think about this board. We accept that some people don't like the ship and that's their prerogative. Did we bash Tara when she broke up with Willow for broadly the same reason that Buffy broke up with Spike (sanity preservation)? No. Do we run around calling people racist if they're not on our ship? No.
I know that people who like B/S are upset that it seems to have ended, and they have every right to express that sadness and anger. BUT as for the B/S people who have consistently treated those of us who don't believe that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread as though we're not 'proper' fans of the show, actively denied us the right to express our our opinions (try making a post expressing reservations about B/S on the Cross and Stake. I can pretty much guarantee that it will be deleted) and have used it as an excuse to beat us over the head with 'no means yes' crap and an entertainingly retrograde approach to gender relations: well, tough. Those B/S people are the ones for whom I have zero respect, purely b/c they've had zero respect for my opinion as a person who doesn't like B/S.
If these people were genuine fans, they would realise that the show is bigger than any one ship, even though they may enjoy one ship in particular. I have respect for B/S people - as I would for any fan of the show - who is interested in engaging in intelligent debate on the show and on the relationship. Sadly, for some reason, the majority of online B/Sers aren't. Maybe, as I said, it's just that the unreasonable people get more attention than the reasonable ones ('twas ever thus.) And I do appreciate that it's bad that everyone who is pro-B/S gets tarred with the same brush as a result. To reiterate: I have sympathy for those B/Sers who have genuine respect for other points of view. As for the rest of them: nope. Sorry. I've never had any sympathy for people who can dish it out but not take it.

[This message has been edited by tyche (edited February 28, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by tyche (edited March 02, 2002).]quote:

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 8:46 am

I know what a Windows BSOD is but what is a Buffyverse BSD?

For the record, in case someone might wonder, I do not dislike/hate Buffy. Au contraire, on computer hardware boards I have been called a Buffy nut and that was referring to the character more than the show. I used to collect all kinds of images of SMG before I overcame what might be turning into an addiction and formatted my SMG partition 18 months ago.

As for the B/S shippers who have treated kittens unfairly or rudely onother boards, the vitriol should be reserved for them on those boards unless they show here to gloat or something similar. I, for one, do not enjoy paying for the sins of others. If I start being insulting to W/T here then I definitely expect some réparties that register on the Richter Scale. Otherwise, lumping all the B/S shippers here with some nutjobs on other boards would be an unfair generalization. I am a B/S shipper and I am also a W/T shipper and also a X/A shipper. I want all the couples on BTVS to be happy. Being in favour of one relationship does not exclude the others. One can be respectful of all three relationships. Liking one does not mean belittling the other two. They are not exclusive in my book.

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Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **Dr.G** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:04 am

quote:
Originally posted by tyche:
If these people were genuine fans, they would realise that the show is bigger than any one ship

Tyche I agree and understand most of what you've said, except that which I just quoted. I do not get around much, on other boards that is. I can understand that B/S shippers would defend that relationship passionately (though I can never understand why anyone shipping that ship would blame/hate one half of said ship for whatever trouble it is in), I would do the same for W/T (except blame/hate either one of them for whatever trouble they are in). I would say that arguing against B/S should always be ok on a board that is *not* dedicated to that relationship, like this one. But I would never go to a B/S board to say anything against that ship (not saying that you do). Just like I do not want to read anything against W/T on the Kitten. To me W/T have become bigger than the show, but I am still a genuine fan of the rest of the show.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 28, 2002).]quote:

by **Zahir** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:12 am

I'm going to mention that the whole B/S thing struck me as really good story, and that the end of their intimacy seemed to happen in the best possible way. Buffy fessed up to her feelings--she wants Spike. But she'll never love him. It feels good to be with him, but in the long run its killing her. That last methought actually got a reaction out of Spike (whether he pays attention to it is another question). A new kind of relationship between them will now develop, based on more than the delightful union of two bodies.

Interestingly, this parallels Willow/Tara in a way. To be sure, both of them are sweeter and nicer than either Spike or Buffy, but there was a taint of co-dependency to their love right from the start. Tara, in particular, kept letting go of her core values in favor of Willow's judgement--which is very, very rarely a good idea. When boys found her pretty, she thought what they saw was Willow's effect on her (rather than her own scrumptiousness). She even blindly accepted some of Willow's superlame excuses (like how Dawn found out about resurrection spells). That cycle needed to break, for both their sakes.

Now, they are rebuilding a new relationship following a breakup. Methinks their love will emerge many times stronger and healthier than before.

Just like whatever alliance/friendship thingee Spike and Buffy are going to have will be better for them.

Interestingly, Xander and Anya have managed to go through much the same process (or are managing to) without breaking up at all--by fighting.

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"O let my name be in the Book of Love.
If it be there, I care not of
That other book Above...
Strike it out! Or write it in anew.
But let it be in the Book of Love!"
--Omar Kyam

by **SiWangMu** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:22 am

tyche, your post is very thoughtful and, at least for me, enlightening. This is the only online Buffy community I've ever really wanted to join, so I just don't know that much about what kind of junk flies around on other boards and what people have had to deal with in the community at large, although the W/T flak is easy to guess at as confirmed by kittens often referring to their frustration with other boards'/communities' attitudes.

This is all to say, when I (yes I consider it mostly my fault) made my li'l chipper post about how the "Doctor actually Warren" theory would be neat because (1) cool plot twist that would echo the show's history, which I'm a sucker for, and (2) would mean slightly less evil of Spike, in which case my attitude was rah for him, which is just a facet of my personality--I try to love all the characters and want the best for them, and I never could bring myself to want someone to stay evil, even if it's the only thing that makes sense--but please, that opinion is not really what I intended to say with this, it's probably not even well-founded enough to debate.
My point is: When I, ah, started this thread down that dark path, in light of what I've come to realize are people's feelings on the subject... I knew not what I did. I'm sorry for causing or contributing to rancor and unhappiness for the kitties in any way.

I guess I just have one request, which unfortunately I am well aware is a whole lot to ask. I think, maybe, it would help a great deal if we could try to respond to what people have actually said? For instance, if my memory serves me correctly (which it may not) no one in this thread has actually expressed the opinion that Buffy shouldn't have broken up with Spike. We seem to be unanimous on that front. However, the sympathy some have expressed for Spike, and my unwittingly annoying opinions, have prompted many people to respond with what I would summarize as a "Gah! Stupid BSers/Redemptioners/apologists. These ideas drive me nuts with their persistence and general illogic"
That response seems justified to me, but unfortunately it often seems to come out as "Gah! You stupid poster, how can you possibly be so wrong? And what are you doing here anyway?"

I could be wrong. It could be that people are really thinking that second, it just seems... unlikely. But as it is, the misunderstandings and hurtful, divisive posting just kinda bothered me, so, um. :: embarrased now by long personal post::

I'm really unsure if this is appropriate to go up, but I've been wanting to say something about all the conflict, especially since I feel like I kinda started it
So there's my 2 cents. If it's just that bad, go on ahead and type "Gah! Stupid poster" back to me. It'd be kinda funny

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"I think this line's mostly filler"

"Tara: I do not know in other things concerning everyone, but, the chicken is loved."

[This message has been edited by SiWangMu (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:32 am

"A new kind of relationship between them will now develop, based on more than the delightful union of two bodies."

Zahir.,

This makes me think of SMG's words in the BBC interview linked here yesterday.

"The thing about Buffy and Spike is they understand each other on a level that nobody else understands her. They’ve both lived a hundred lives and I think there’s a connection there that we will see evolve over the next couple of years where she realizes that he really is someone that she can trust, someone that’s a companion to her and someone that really understands her unlike anybody else."

Most relationships start with passion and end with companionship if they last long enough. For some it takes little time, for others the transition takes place after decades, for others never. While these two forms of a relationship are different and sometimes cease to overlap, neither is intrinsically better than the other. This is hard to understand for some people, like some of the younger people I talk to get a bewildered look on their face when I say that about half the time I'd rather cuddle than make love.

The companionship may also subsist or emerge after the romantic liaison ends. My ex-wife and I divorced amicably 7 years ago and we still consider ourselves each other's best friend, much closer than family.

The thing with Xander and Anya is that their little fights have released the pressure a little bit at a time. Being a couple means you have to share and that means not always having it your way. Since most humans are intrinsically selfish, this may foster a minuscule unconscious resentment that may add up to become a big sore spot or a monkey on one's back, particularly if there is outside influence. As we have seen, all three couples on BTVS have been subjected to some degree of outside pressure, either from their friends and acquaintances or from strangers.

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **Wiccagrrl** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:54 am

quote:
Originally posted by Dr.G:
I can understand that B/S shippers would defend that relationship passionately (though I can never understand why anyone shipping that ship would blame/hate one half of said ship for whatever trouble it is in), I would do the same for W/T (except blame/hate either one of them for whatever trouble they are in).
[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 28, 2002).]

This certainly doesn't pertain to all B/S fans, but it does feel to me sometimes like there are some Spuffy fans (and I use that term deliberately) who really just care for the 'ship, and not the characters. (Or perhaps I should say don't care for or about Buffy- they like Spike ok) That it doesn't matter to them if the relationship is making them both miserable as long as they are together.

I adore W/T together, want them to be together, but I cheered and supported Tara for having the strength to walk away. (of course, I am firmly convinced that they *will* get back together, and that helps) Same with B/A. Liked them together, but like them as individuals and think it was probably the best thing for them to go their separate ways.

With B/S, I dunno, it's almost like some fans think Spike's earned his right at a shot at the slayer, like she's his prize, and her feelings and basic mental health shouldn't really enter into it.
quote:

by **xita** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:58 am

BTW, eyes that is a really old interview. More to do with what has already been then what will be. All the writers have said he is not the long haul guy, I think it may be time to listen.

by **Dr.G** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:00 am

Wiccagrrl, I supported Tara as well of course, she did what she had to do, it was best for them both. I don't hate Willow for what happened, and I never will and I just do not understand how someone can support a ship in which they actually hate one person in that ship.

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:15 am

Xita,

I did not know that this was old. It was posted posted February 27, 2002 07:58 by Tyche and the BBC page only shows the daily date, so I had no way to know. I would have thought that if it were old there would in all probability already have been a thread about it (since reposts are systematically locked and forwarded to the original threads, I tend to take the fact that a post is left alone as an indication that it represents new material). For all I know, I might even have posted a reply to it before and simply do not remember. La mémoire est la faculté qui oublie.

If that is the case, so be it. Maybe William will remain as friend because I would not like to see him revert to being a mortal enemy. As long as Buffy is happy in the long run, I'm happy. At any rate, I have no power over what Joss decides in his infinite wisdom, so I won't get an ulcer over this.

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Illegitimi non carborundum!

[This message has been edited by Eyes Without A Face (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **KathleenWolf** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:33 am

having been in the middle of this discussion last night for a bit... I came back to check and I have to first say I appreciate that the focus has turned to a general debate of tolerance and question...

I have to admit many times to reading the boards to see the difference of opinions that exist... and it seems like the B/S "bad or good?" debate churns up the fundamental questions...

I think as many people before me have pointed out... people often impose what the want out of a ship/show/character/scene over what is presented and will try to consolidate what then can to make their image stand firm... it is a basic coping reaction...

I guess the standard I try to hold myself to is to step away from that and truely look at what I've been given...

I personally can't even understand at a coping emotional level how Buffy could be with Spike let along do what she has done over the last how many eps... but as a writer myself and fan I have stepped away and seen that what is being acomplished on the show is the deconstruction of the characters...

as with the Willow/Tara... emotionally I couldn't believe what Will did to Tara twice... messing with her memory... and I celebrated Tara's inner strength and the weight of her own self worth when she left her... but i didn't enjoy seeing my favorite couple break up... not in the least... but it was the reality for the character and their reaction to a set of circumstances...

B/S shippers might want 'buffy to see the light about spike', might want to have spike 'run the road of good intentions' but there comes a time when you have to see what you want and admit what you are being given...

and after all of that... if you think you'd like to see the scene do something different... write your own fic!

for even if the show (heaven forbid!!!) never gives us W/T back together again... I guarantee there won't be a lack of fic giving us what we want to see

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"Are all you witches gay?" Buffy - Walking In Circles

by **xita** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:34 am

Not all interviews are posted. I myself skipped posting that because I saw no relavance to the show or the focus of the board but it is on topic and if someone posts it then of course it stayed up. But not all interviews get posted, I look to see if the interview has some specific interest to the board, also in that thread I do believe someone mentions that interview is old.

by **Dr.G** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:39 am

Autumn posted in Tyche's thread on February 27, 2002 14:50 saying that this was an old interview, and she is right, at least the comments about Spike were, I am sure of it, I have read it at the start of the season as well somewhere. The thread probably got deleted in one of the clean ups as we mostly save the things which concern W/T. Sometimes interviews get recycled, Aly held an interview for TVzone this year and the same answers popped up in three different magazines over the next couple of months, slightly different questions, same answers.

[This message has been edited by Dr.G (edited February 28, 2002).]

by **Eyes Without A Face** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:39 am

Understood, Xita. Yup, AutumnT posted that this was an old interview but after I had posted in the thread and I hadn't gone back to it to read further. My bad.

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Wallpapers
Illegitimi non carborundum!

by **ellenfan** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:43 am

Good episode! I liked it a lot, even though Tara wasn´t in it.

Surprisingly, I really liked to see Riley again. I agree that him being in the episode was important to contrast Buffy´s life. He seems to have everything Buffy doesn´t - a good job, a great partner, a real life. Seeing him again brought Buffy a much needed closure. There is no chance of them getting back together again, he has moved on with his life and loves his wife, but he is still a friend who loves and respects her. It´s her chance to also move on now, which she did when she broke up with Spike, and I honestly hope that she´s not going back to the DMP, either. Also, the way he and Sam expressed their admiration for her helped to increase her self-respect again. The fact that she is the slayer, that she is something special, and that others admire her, somehow got lost somewhere between serving burgers, raising a teenager and f..... Spike. Now she can start to build up her life again.

As all of you, I think that Willow/Aly was just adorable. The W/D scene was great, and her "What a bitch" had me laughing out loud (which is why my neighbour hates me now because it was three o´clock in the morning when I saw the ep.) Even if Tara wasn´t in the episode, to see Willow´s face when she talked about her made up for that. There´s just one word for that: Hannigan!

I really don´t want to engage in the whole Spike discussion, but I´d like to make some comments on him, if I may. I have to admit that I wanted to see him as a good guy, as if he had really changed. It might be because I just started watching BtVS about a year ago and have never seen him as a bad guy. I really thought that he had changed, especially after seeing him in the last few episodes of S5 and the first few episodes of S6. He was there whenever the Scoobies needed him, he protected Dawn, helped hunting demons. I don´t think he did that for money, but because he felt guilty that he wasn´t able to keep his promise to Buffy and protect Dawn. He also seemed genuinely hurt in "After Life", when he found out that the Scoobies brought back Buffy without telling him. I don´t know if I just didn´t see the signs, or didn´t want to see them, or if the writers really intended to go that way and now decided differently, or if he behaves like he does because of the way Buffy treated him. But it´s obvious now that, after all, he still is what he has always been - a vampire without a soul. He sort of says it himself. But still, Buffy can´t let herself use him, and she treats him with respect by calling him William. It´s like he said in the "The Gift":

quote:
I know that I´m a monster, but you treat me like a man.

Last but not least, I´d like to comment on Xander and Anya. I really loved them in this episode, especially the scene when they were hiding in the bathroom from their respective friends and relatives. And I loved Anya´s comment, that the wedding would go as planned even if she had to kill all the guests and half the population of Sunnydale. That also had me laughing out loud.

I look forward to the next episodes. As someone said, it seems like this was Buffy´s "Wrecked". From here, it can only go up. If this wasn´t the Buffyverse, of course...

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„For this, we should all erect little shrines to the goddess Ellen and burn lavender incense. Network TV finally has gays and lesbians on its radar.“ Joyce Millman, Salon.com, May 2000

"Nobody messes with my girl!" Tara in Bargaining Part 2quote:

by **Ari** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:51 am

quote:
Originally posted by JodiMnstr:
It's been pointed out by some that Dark Magic seems to be more about controlling the forces of magic and bending them to your will for selfish purposes. I think they've drawn a pretty clear distinction between the kind of magic that Tara uses, which is generally motivated by a need to defend
It seems to me that at the point that Willow began tapping into Dark magic to force her will to be carried out, two things happened...she became significantly more powerful, and her spells were more frequently successful despite what the underlying intention was. And therein lies the subtle trap...as with many things that seem to come too easily and don't exact a noticable price, it becomes very easy to be caught up in the rush and ignore the danger.

I agree completely. Actually, they showed this happening pretty explicitly at the beginning of the season.

In Afterlife, Willow and Tara are trying to do the spell together to give the ghosty demon a form so Buffy could kill it. They were there doing the complicated chanting and ritual. And then when it didn't work quickly enough, Willow went right for the dark magicks (and notice how Tara dropped her hands away immediately) and simply said one word and it was done.

How could Willow not get into a habit of using the magic all the time if all she has to do is say one word (as for example "Forget") and be able to do, literally, anything she wants. How could that not be seductive and addicting?

Especially if the down side of it, a progressive physical/emotional dependence, is so well hidden.

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari (edited February 28, 2002).]

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