Discussion S5E 21 The Weight of the World

[Wiccagrrl]

Xita, you're the best. Have I mentioned that lately? I agree, I think Joss is doing a wonderful job with W/T, and actually I do think we're gonna get a scene or two of W/T together *after* Tara's restored in the next ep (assumptions, not spoilers.) I don't think any this arc was done to neuter the relationship, but in the long run to strengthen it. Most of what has happened in the last couple of eps have felt a bit like filler to me. Not bad, but mostly exposition, one big event (Glory getting Dawn)I'm counting on the finale to resolve a lot of what's happening. Besides, Joss wrote and directed the finale, and who does W/T better than Joss?

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Tracy

Hear that Baby? You're my always.

[Gadget]

tvsurfer still agitating I see...most of the world isn't ready for what you want..you are I am and most people here are but for lots of reasons that we have already spoken about they are not going to happen..what we do have is at least an attept to portray lesbians in a positive way..for you its falling short and I am sorry for others its OK and for others its way too freaky. What I have noticed on other boards is that people who have previously not been to suuportive of Tara as a character feeling empathy for her and not just because she is Willow g/f..its a small step (and maybe not enough) but its something.

I don't see your comments as Joss bashing particularily but in the Room Where Women Come and Go Talking of Michealangelo..you were bound to get challenged.

[Dr.G]

For the record: I *completely* agree with Xita.

Tvsurfer, this is not the first time you have expressed your opinion about the writers and what you think of the storyline. Now from previous responses (and I do not just mean in this thread) you could have deduced that most here disagree with you. And when you keep expressing the same opinion over and over, you may expect some fierce replies. Because it is upsetting to read.

We all love the W/T relationship. And it was given to us by the most amazing team of writers there is. Yet you make it sound like they are conspiring to lessen what they have created. And you use analogies that do not work.

They may have left us hanging for four weeks, but Tara has not been brainsucked for four weeks, she has only been this way a few days now. Xander did have his arm in a cast for weeks. You are referring to all the scenes between B/S and B/R to prove how they are treating W/T different, well they are, but they are not treating W/T less, they are treating them better. Those are the exploitative scenes, and W/T could never be that.

We all know where we stand I think.

Before I forget, thank you Rayne!

And that bunny scene cracked me up. Damn I can just picture it.

[BBOvenGuy]

Thank you Xita!

Thank you for saying what I was struggling very hard to keep from saying (on the grounds of me being someone who's not a moderator).

tvsurfer, by your own admission Buffy isn't giving you what you want. From the looks of things, that's making you quite unhappy. I'm very sorry about that - I don't like it when people are disappointed in their lives - but at the same time I have trouble stomaching your words. There are few things that upset me more than people who call themselves "fans" of a show and then do nothing but grumble and complain about the show they're supposedly a "fan" of. It's caused me to leave a number of lists and boards. The Kitten Board is usually a refuge from such talk, and I get upset when that refuge is disrupted.

Buffy is a TV show. One TV show. It isn't going to change the entire world by itself. It isn't going to transform society overnight. It is one step in a long road. It's a very important step, though - in the future there will be others that would not have been possible without this one. And personally, I think Joss&co. are handling things very well.

[tvsurfer]

xita, there have been long threads here with people discussing their differing opinions on the bible, which a third of the word believes to be the word of God

Joss is a st8 white male writer making a commercial piece of tv for profit using a female hero and has brought a lesbian couple into.

While I appreciate his apparent sincerity in this regard, He is not a woman or a lesbian or gay and he is certainly not my God and his work, I believe is open to full and honest discussion of the themes presented.

I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

I have to ask why is Blantant Violence as Foreplay to sex, S&M, and sex with plastic robots seen as OK to air without fear of ending on the cutting room floor, while open affection between W&T must be censored

I've provided my opinions on what has been presented regarding characters and themes on a tv show and how the reflect/what they say about our society and I've done my best to explain why I've reached those opinions.

I'm sorry you've chosen to dismiss my opinions and see them as a afront to the shows producer, because that was not my intent. I think discussion of the issues I raised hold value. But this is your board and I'll respect your wishes

so its been fun

but I'll bid you and the board good bye

[AngelusUK]

I also agree with Xita's comments, I think the storyline has reinforced Willow and Tara in my mind.

It shows just how much Willow does love Tara, her comments at the end of Tough Love prove that. Tara seems calm around Willow and despite her brain suckage she is still in love with Willow. If you look at Tara's eyes when she looks at Willow you can see the Love.

I know Tara will be OK (praying very hard) and that she and Willow will be stronger together than before.

Joss loves our favorite girls and he won't let us down

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Amber Fan
Willow "Thats fine I don't need to be snuggled"
Tara "Vixen"

[xita]

xita, there have been long threads here with people discussing their differing opinions on the bible, which a third of the word believes to be the word of God

Believe me, I watch the threads carefully. We do not allow threads which would question and challenge people's opinion on that subject (because there are no right answers).

Joss is a st8 white male writer making a commercial piece of tv for profit using a female hero and has brought a lesbian couple into.

And I am a lesbian of color and this makes me better? If he really wanted to make something just for profit (notice I am not saying he doesn't do it for profit) he would write something like Dark Angel if he did.

While I appreciate his apparent sincerity in this regard, He is not a woman or a lesbian or gay and he is certainly not my God and his work, I believe is open to full and honest discussion of the themes presented.
And I have seen lesbian women write the most homophobic self hating stuff imaginable, same goes for men. I refuse to live in a world where I think only lesbians can write lesbians and only men can write men. I have never called him my god, inspite of your implications.

I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

We disagree. And really to state why is pointless since they are only opinions. And you know what they say about those.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

See, ok again I disagree. I think that the show is portraying a complex relationship between to young women who have fallen in love in front of our eyes and have grown more comfortable in each other and their relationship and their sexuality. If things weren't moving along, I too would leave this ship. However, this relationship has never taken a step back, ever. It continues to move forward and I do believe will include more honest portrayal of their sexual lives.

I have to ask why is Blantant Violence as Foreplay to sex, S&M, and sex with plastic robots seen as OK to air without fear of ending on the cutting room floor, while open affection between W&T must be censored

Well, I think you are missing hte point. I think having those things side by side points out how wrong our world is when girls can't be allowed to make love in front of the camera but violence can. DId you see But I am a Cheerleader? Did you know that movie was chopped to pieces because it could not get an R rating. A masturbation scene got cut so that they could get the R rating. Yet teenage boys movies are allowed to show whatever they want (think American Pie). The world is not perfect. From everythign I have read, I know Joss is aware of censorship, gay visibility and how to subversibly get across all the things he wants to say.

I've provided my opinions on what has been presented regarding characters and themes on a tv show and how the reflect/what they say about our society and I've done my best to explain why I've reached those opinions.

Yes and we have heard you, but you continue to make the same point over and over again. My feeling is, if you truly feel this way about the show maybe you shouldn't watch. This is what I stated to you earlier.

I'm sorry you've chosen to dismiss my opinions and see them as a afront to the shows producer, because that was not my intent. I think discussion of the issues I raised hold value. But this is your board and I'll respect your wishes

I don't want to attack the same people who are trying to bring us a truly original and positive thing as willow and tara. Again, you have stated your opinion and I have let it stand in the past. However, continuous reptition of them bring this board down with negativity and that's just not the reason I created this. This board is for celebration, plenty of other places for negativity.

so its been fun

but I'll bid you and the board good byek

I am sorry you feel like my objection to negativity is an invitation to leave. I would not wish that as you have brought plenty of positive contributions. I welcome your positive presence on the board and hope you reconsider your decision.

[This message has been edited by xita (edited May 18, 2001).]

IP: Logged

BBOvenGuy
Gay Now!


Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted May 18, 2001 02:36               

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quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

---

Arghh... urghh... must... not... get... into... discussion... rrrrr...

What can I say? I'm a weakling. Plus my brain comes up with things and won't let me sleep until they get out.

Okay, the premise here is that Joss has supposedly neutered the Willow/Tara relationship by making Tara a brain-suck victim, and the fact that Tara has been left a brain-suck victim for over three episodes now when straight characters get over their ailments quickly is "proof" of the premise.

Well then, what do you make of Buffy and Angel?

Buffy and Angel had sex once, at which point Angel turned evil. How many episodes did Angel remain evil? How many more episodes was he gone in hell? How many more episodes did it take for him to return to normal after he got back? And in fact, when did the Buffy/Angel relationship get back to the same place that it was when Buffy and Angel had sex? I'll give you a hint - it never did. (Well okay, it did once, but Angel had to take it back...)

Given the premise that placing an obstacle in the path of two people in love lessens the relationship, you would have to conclude that Joss hated Buffy/Angel. Maybe he hates heterosexual relationships, or maybe it's just heterosexual relationships between people of widely different ages. Do you believe that? I don't.

Just because you're not going to see Willow and Tara "smooshing" the way Xander and Anya do, that doesn't mean Joss doesn't value the relationship. You're missing an entire level - the most important level in Joss's style. You're missing the romance. Only Buffy and Angel have faced obstacles more dire than what Willow and Tara are facing now. That's the Buffy and Angel that people still remember as the romance that made the series, even though they haven't been together for almost two years now.

We might not get to see Willow and Tara do any smooshing, but we do get to see them being romantic. Personally, I'll take romance over smooshing any day.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

IP: Logged

Dazey
Willowhand


Posts: 499
Registered: Mar 2001 posted May 18, 2001 02:47               

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quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

---

It is not the responsibility of Joss Whedon, nor of anyone in the entertainment industry, to attempt to alter the public's perception of anything. Because it's the entertainment industry. His responsibility is to tell stories, and he does a damn fine job of it. One of the stories that he is telling is about two women who are in love with each other...I find it to be one of the most beautiful and romantic stories I've ever seen. Willow and Tara are not "a lesbian couple," they are Willow and Tara, two unique individuals in a unique relationship. This is their story, not the story of homosexual love in a homophobic world. I think it is you, not Joss, who is treating them differently than the other couples on the show, by viewing them as symbols of homosexuality instead of just two people in love.

Joss does not owe us--and I say "us" speaking as a non-straight woman--anything other than a good story. He has given and continues to give us that. (Editing to add: I actually think he's given us a good deal more than that, and should be thanked for what is in fact a remarkably bold stance. He got us a kiss! A real, loving, completely non-exploitative kiss! Come on, let's look at the big picture here!) It is neither his responsibility nor, I'm sure, his goal to single-handedly make lesbianism acceptable to mainstream society.

Like Bob, I too have left other boards due to the constant negativity displayed towards the show, it's writers, and the actors. Please, let's keep the Kitten a place of refuge from that. Please.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited May 18, 2001).]

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Tara
Cool Monster Fighter


Posts: 128
Registered: Oct 2000 posted May 18, 2001 04:27            

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Okay, I'm gonna go a little off the topic of Willow/Tara that everyone's been talking about for the moment to talk about Ben/Glory. Now I for one am loving this storyline (which may be in great part to Clare, but anyway... ). Glory has been my favourite villian this show has had, with the exception of Faith. I find her to be quite funny at times, and it's nice to see a villian with such an obvious weakness (the brainsuck thing, plus being stuck in a mortal body).

Now the one thing I don't like about the story is how it is basically being rewritten every episode. All season so far we've been led to believe Ben and Glory are related, now they're not. At the beginning of the season Ben and Glory were in the same room, at different parts, at the same time (when Glory grabbed the marrow sucking demon or whatever it was). Now unless she can undress, dress and run incredibly quick, which I've never seen her do (except moving quick, but she always dresses normal speed...) they pretty much made that scene impossible when they put Ben and Glory in the same body.

Then, in Blood Ties which we just saw in Australia it was made out pretty clear that they were related. Ben talking about hating his sister at times, wishing she was dead. Glory talking about family being a pain in the ass just after saying something about Ben. Then they go and change it again. Now while it wasn't explicitly stated they were related, they pretty much insinuated it. All this rewriting history is a bugger, but what can you do So long as the story keeps getting interesting, I'll keep being happy, which I am. Just felt the need to get that off my chest.

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CalebRoss.com
Nathan West Online

IP: Logged

[This message has been edited by xita (edited May 18, 2001).]IP: LoggedBBOvenGuyGay Now!


Posts: 1925
Registered: Sep 2000 posted May 18, 2001 02:36               

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

---

Arghh... urghh... must... not... get... into... discussion... rrrrr...

What can I say? I'm a weakling. Plus my brain comes up with things and won't let me sleep until they get out.

Okay, the premise here is that Joss has supposedly neutered the Willow/Tara relationship by making Tara a brain-suck victim, and the fact that Tara has been left a brain-suck victim for over three episodes now when straight characters get over their ailments quickly is "proof" of the premise.

Well then, what do you make of Buffy and Angel?

Buffy and Angel had sex once, at which point Angel turned evil. How many episodes did Angel remain evil? How many more episodes was he gone in hell? How many more episodes did it take for him to return to normal after he got back? And in fact, when did the Buffy/Angel relationship get back to the same place that it was when Buffy and Angel had sex? I'll give you a hint - it never did. (Well okay, it did once, but Angel had to take it back...)

Given the premise that placing an obstacle in the path of two people in love lessens the relationship, you would have to conclude that Joss hated Buffy/Angel. Maybe he hates heterosexual relationships, or maybe it's just heterosexual relationships between people of widely different ages. Do you believe that? I don't.

Just because you're not going to see Willow and Tara "smooshing" the way Xander and Anya do, that doesn't mean Joss doesn't value the relationship. You're missing an entire level - the most important level in Joss's style. You're missing the romance. Only Buffy and Angel have faced obstacles more dire than what Willow and Tara are facing now. That's the Buffy and Angel that people still remember as the romance that made the series, even though they haven't been together for almost two years now.

We might not get to see Willow and Tara do any smooshing, but we do get to see them being romantic. Personally, I'll take romance over smooshing any day.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."

IP: Logged

posted May 18, 2001 02:36               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

---

Arghh... urghh... must... not... get... into... discussion... rrrrr...

What can I say? I'm a weakling. Plus my brain comes up with things and won't let me sleep until they get out.

Okay, the premise here is that Joss has supposedly neutered the Willow/Tara relationship by making Tara a brain-suck victim, and the fact that Tara has been left a brain-suck victim for over three episodes now when straight characters get over their ailments quickly is "proof" of the premise.

Well then, what do you make of Buffy and Angel?

Buffy and Angel had sex once, at which point Angel turned evil. How many episodes did Angel remain evil? How many more episodes was he gone in hell? How many more episodes did it take for him to return to normal after he got back? And in fact, when did the Buffy/Angel relationship get back to the same place that it was when Buffy and Angel had sex? I'll give you a hint - it never did. (Well okay, it did once, but Angel had to take it back...)

Given the premise that placing an obstacle in the path of two people in love lessens the relationship, you would have to conclude that Joss hated Buffy/Angel. Maybe he hates heterosexual relationships, or maybe it's just heterosexual relationships between people of widely different ages. Do you believe that? I don't.

Just because you're not going to see Willow and Tara "smooshing" the way Xander and Anya do, that doesn't mean Joss doesn't value the relationship. You're missing an entire level - the most important level in Joss's style. You're missing the romance. Only Buffy and Angel have faced obstacles more dire than what Willow and Tara are facing now. That's the Buffy and Angel that people still remember as the romance that made the series, even though they haven't been together for almost two years now.

We might not get to see Willow and Tara do any smooshing, but we do get to see them being romantic. Personally, I'll take romance over smooshing any day.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."quote:IP: LoggedDazeyWillowhand


Posts: 499
Registered: Mar 2001 posted May 18, 2001 02:47               

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

---

It is not the responsibility of Joss Whedon, nor of anyone in the entertainment industry, to attempt to alter the public's perception of anything. Because it's the entertainment industry. His responsibility is to tell stories, and he does a damn fine job of it. One of the stories that he is telling is about two women who are in love with each other...I find it to be one of the most beautiful and romantic stories I've ever seen. Willow and Tara are not "a lesbian couple," they are Willow and Tara, two unique individuals in a unique relationship. This is their story, not the story of homosexual love in a homophobic world. I think it is you, not Joss, who is treating them differently than the other couples on the show, by viewing them as symbols of homosexuality instead of just two people in love.

Joss does not owe us--and I say "us" speaking as a non-straight woman--anything other than a good story. He has given and continues to give us that. (Editing to add: I actually think he's given us a good deal more than that, and should be thanked for what is in fact a remarkably bold stance. He got us a kiss! A real, loving, completely non-exploitative kiss! Come on, let's look at the big picture here!) It is neither his responsibility nor, I'm sure, his goal to single-handedly make lesbianism acceptable to mainstream society.

Like Bob, I too have left other boards due to the constant negativity displayed towards the show, it's writers, and the actors. Please, let's keep the Kitten a place of refuge from that. Please.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited May 18, 2001).]

IP: Logged

posted May 18, 2001 02:47               

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

---

It is not the responsibility of Joss Whedon, nor of anyone in the entertainment industry, to attempt to alter the public's perception of anything. Because it's the entertainment industry. His responsibility is to tell stories, and he does a damn fine job of it. One of the stories that he is telling is about two women who are in love with each other...I find it to be one of the most beautiful and romantic stories I've ever seen. Willow and Tara are not "a lesbian couple," they are Willow and Tara, two unique individuals in a unique relationship. This is their story, not the story of homosexual love in a homophobic world. I think it is you, not Joss, who is treating them differently than the other couples on the show, by viewing them as symbols of homosexuality instead of just two people in love.

Joss does not owe us--and I say "us" speaking as a non-straight woman--anything other than a good story. He has given and continues to give us that. (Editing to add: I actually think he's given us a good deal more than that, and should be thanked for what is in fact a remarkably bold stance. He got us a kiss! A real, loving, completely non-exploitative kiss! Come on, let's look at the big picture here!) It is neither his responsibility nor, I'm sure, his goal to single-handedly make lesbianism acceptable to mainstream society.

Like Bob, I too have left other boards due to the constant negativity displayed towards the show, it's writers, and the actors. Please, let's keep the Kitten a place of refuge from that. Please.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited May 18, 2001).]quote:IP: LoggedTaraCool Monster Fighter


Posts: 128
Registered: Oct 2000 posted May 18, 2001 04:27            

---

Okay, I'm gonna go a little off the topic of Willow/Tara that everyone's been talking about for the moment to talk about Ben/Glory. Now I for one am loving this storyline (which may be in great part to Clare, but anyway... ). Glory has been my favourite villian this show has had, with the exception of Faith. I find her to be quite funny at times, and it's nice to see a villian with such an obvious weakness (the brainsuck thing, plus being stuck in a mortal body).

Now the one thing I don't like about the story is how it is basically being rewritten every episode. All season so far we've been led to believe Ben and Glory are related, now they're not. At the beginning of the season Ben and Glory were in the same room, at different parts, at the same time (when Glory grabbed the marrow sucking demon or whatever it was). Now unless she can undress, dress and run incredibly quick, which I've never seen her do (except moving quick, but she always dresses normal speed...) they pretty much made that scene impossible when they put Ben and Glory in the same body.

Then, in Blood Ties which we just saw in Australia it was made out pretty clear that they were related. Ben talking about hating his sister at times, wishing she was dead. Glory talking about family being a pain in the ass just after saying something about Ben. Then they go and change it again. Now while it wasn't explicitly stated they were related, they pretty much insinuated it. All this rewriting history is a bugger, but what can you do So long as the story keeps getting interesting, I'll keep being happy, which I am. Just felt the need to get that off my chest.

------------------
CalebRoss.com
Nathan West Online

IP: Logged

posted May 18, 2001 04:27             Okay, I'm gonna go a little off the topic of Willow/Tara that everyone's been talking about for the moment to talk about Ben/Glory. Now I for one am loving this storyline (which may be in great part to Clare, but anyway... ). Glory has been my favourite villian this show has had, with the exception of Faith. I find her to be quite funny at times, and it's nice to see a villian with such an obvious weakness (the brainsuck thing, plus being stuck in a mortal body).

Now the one thing I don't like about the story is how it is basically being rewritten every episode. All season so far we've been led to believe Ben and Glory are related, now they're not. At the beginning of the season Ben and Glory were in the same room, at different parts, at the same time (when Glory grabbed the marrow sucking demon or whatever it was). Now unless she can undress, dress and run incredibly quick, which I've never seen her do (except moving quick, but she always dresses normal speed...) they pretty much made that scene impossible when they put Ben and Glory in the same body.

Then, in Blood Ties which we just saw in Australia it was made out pretty clear that they were related. Ben talking about hating his sister at times, wishing she was dead. Glory talking about family being a pain in the ass just after saying something about Ben. Then they go and change it again. Now while it wasn't explicitly stated they were related, they pretty much insinuated it. All this rewriting history is a bugger, but what can you do So long as the story keeps getting interesting, I'll keep being happy, which I am. Just felt the need to get that off my chest.

------------------
CalebRoss.com
Nathan West Online

[BBOvenGuy]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
I am personally not convinced that the unbalanced manner in which W&T have been presented, as opposed to all other couples on the show, even willow and oz, is a boon to the gay/lesbian community.

To my mind treating them differently sends a message that, they are different and lesser and cannot be shown in certain ways.

---

Arghh... urghh... must... not... get... into... discussion... rrrrr...

What can I say? I'm a weakling. Plus my brain comes up with things and won't let me sleep until they get out.

Okay, the premise here is that Joss has supposedly neutered the Willow/Tara relationship by making Tara a brain-suck victim, and the fact that Tara has been left a brain-suck victim for over three episodes now when straight characters get over their ailments quickly is "proof" of the premise.

Well then, what do you make of Buffy and Angel?

Buffy and Angel had sex once, at which point Angel turned evil. How many episodes did Angel remain evil? How many more episodes was he gone in hell? How many more episodes did it take for him to return to normal after he got back? And in fact, when did the Buffy/Angel relationship get back to the same place that it was when Buffy and Angel had sex? I'll give you a hint - it never did. (Well okay, it did once, but Angel had to take it back...)

Given the premise that placing an obstacle in the path of two people in love lessens the relationship, you would have to conclude that Joss hated Buffy/Angel. Maybe he hates heterosexual relationships, or maybe it's just heterosexual relationships between people of widely different ages. Do you believe that? I don't.

Just because you're not going to see Willow and Tara "smooshing" the way Xander and Anya do, that doesn't mean Joss doesn't value the relationship. You're missing an entire level - the most important level in Joss's style. You're missing the romance. Only Buffy and Angel have faced obstacles more dire than what Willow and Tara are facing now. That's the Buffy and Angel that people still remember as the romance that made the series, even though they haven't been together for almost two years now.

We might not get to see Willow and Tara do any smooshing, but we do get to see them being romantic. Personally, I'll take romance over smooshing any day.

------------------
Remember the Kitten Board Mantras:

"Joss is nuts about Tara, Willow/Tara and Amber!"

"Willow and Tara are the most romantic couple on the show, and that's exactly how Joss is treating them."quote:

[Dazey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:
As far as I'm concerned accepting that premise (that W&T have to be treated as different) as truth, does nothing to change the publics perception about homosexual relationships, rather it reinforces the publics perception that they should be protected from seeing two lesbians show affection.

---

It is not the responsibility of Joss Whedon, nor of anyone in the entertainment industry, to attempt to alter the public's perception of anything. Because it's the entertainment industry. His responsibility is to tell stories, and he does a damn fine job of it. One of the stories that he is telling is about two women who are in love with each other...I find it to be one of the most beautiful and romantic stories I've ever seen. Willow and Tara are not "a lesbian couple," they are Willow and Tara, two unique individuals in a unique relationship. This is their story, not the story of homosexual love in a homophobic world. I think it is you, not Joss, who is treating them differently than the other couples on the show, by viewing them as symbols of homosexuality instead of just two people in love.

Joss does not owe us--and I say "us" speaking as a non-straight woman--anything other than a good story. He has given and continues to give us that. (Editing to add: I actually think he's given us a good deal more than that, and should be thanked for what is in fact a remarkably bold stance. He got us a kiss! A real, loving, completely non-exploitative kiss! Come on, let's look at the big picture here!) It is neither his responsibility nor, I'm sure, his goal to single-handedly make lesbianism acceptable to mainstream society.

Like Bob, I too have left other boards due to the constant negativity displayed towards the show, it's writers, and the actors. Please, let's keep the Kitten a place of refuge from that. Please.

[This message has been edited by Dazey (edited May 18, 2001).]quote:

[Tara]

Okay, I'm gonna go a little off the topic of Willow/Tara that everyone's been talking about for the moment to talk about Ben/Glory. Now I for one am loving this storyline (which may be in great part to Clare, but anyway... ). Glory has been my favourite villian this show has had, with the exception of Faith. I find her to be quite funny at times, and it's nice to see a villian with such an obvious weakness (the brainsuck thing, plus being stuck in a mortal body).

Now the one thing I don't like about the story is how it is basically being rewritten every episode. All season so far we've been led to believe Ben and Glory are related, now they're not. At the beginning of the season Ben and Glory were in the same room, at different parts, at the same time (when Glory grabbed the marrow sucking demon or whatever it was). Now unless she can undress, dress and run incredibly quick, which I've never seen her do (except moving quick, but she always dresses normal speed...) they pretty much made that scene impossible when they put Ben and Glory in the same body.

Then, in Blood Ties which we just saw in Australia it was made out pretty clear that they were related. Ben talking about hating his sister at times, wishing she was dead. Glory talking about family being a pain in the ass just after saying something about Ben. Then they go and change it again. Now while it wasn't explicitly stated they were related, they pretty much insinuated it. All this rewriting history is a bugger, but what can you do So long as the story keeps getting interesting, I'll keep being happy, which I am. Just felt the need to get that off my chest.

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CalebRoss.com
Nathan West Online

[GODisTigger]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tara:
At the beginning of the season Ben and Glory were in the same room, at different parts, at the same time (when Glory grabbed the marrow sucking demon or whatever it was). Now unless she can undress, dress and run incredibly quick, which I've never seen her do (except moving quick, but she always dresses normal speed...) they pretty much made that scene impossible when they put Ben and Glory in the same body.

---

I'll disagree with you on that one. When the camera starts to pull away from the shot of Ben undressing, he already removed his shirt and was almost done with the drawstring pants. There was about 25 seconds between that and Glory popping up behind the demon but it WAS enough for Ben to become Glory (only takes a second),for her to throw a dress on over her head and for her even to toss on the bracelets. Once that was done, we already know that it'd take no time at all for her to zip around behind the demon. As for the "sister" thing, I guess it's easier to say "I have a sister" than it is to say "I have this banished insane hellgod who shares my body".

Dquote:

[Wonko]

I agree with GodisTigger about the scene in Family. The reason it was shot like that was to make it more of a shock when we discover that Ben and Glory share a body. We just have to suspend our disbelief slightly It couldhave been done.

As for the sister thing...I believe it has been explicitly stated that Glory is Ben's sister...or at least that Ben calls her his siter.

quote:

---

Ben walks along a deserted outdoor pathway that leads from one wing of the hospital to another. He stops when he sees a cloaked figure lurking near a street lamp.

BEN
(exasperated)
Tell my sister I'm sick of running into
her Jawa rejects.

Ben tries to walk by who we now see is JINX

---

That was in Forever.

I have a question....we know that Ben was created to be Glory's prison which leads me to ask - what about his parents? Did he have any and if so, did they know what he was? If they did, which is my own pet theory, then as soon as Glory began to manifest they would have explained it to him and maybe said something like - 'she's like your sister.' If he was still a child when it started happening it would have been an easy way to explain it. Of course if they knew what was happening they probably knew how to kill Glory too...but then could they bring themselves to kill their own son? Better to send him off to med school where he can try to find his combination of drugs to keep her buried.

Okay, long theory, probably stupid

To get back to TWOTW, I just saw it last night and I'm going to stick my neck out and say it was worth the 8 hours or so I spent downloading it (I know, obsessed much? [g]) I know a lot of people have been saying it was just filler but I liked it. I mean, the Ben/Glory conversation scene was a tad too long and some of the pyschology was a bit heavy handed and of course, they cut the bunnies scene, but on the it was good. I'm interested in the Ben/Glory/Buffy vs Hellgod plot and this was a good ep for that. Personally, I started watching Buffy for W/T, I admit it but that's not the reason I keep watching and it's certainly not the reason I backtracked to seasons 1-3 and watched those too. I like the show. I can't think of a single proper character on it I haven't liked....okay, Parker. I even like Riley. So...where am I going with this...oh yeah, that's why I liked this ep. Even without W/T goodness, there was a lot of other stuff to like

Wonko, (wow, long post.)quote:

[shazza]

Wonko- I live in New Zealand and we wont even start getting s5 till the end of 2001 (if we are lucky!) so you MUST tell me where you can download full eps from! 8 hours pfff! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!

*full on begging going on mixed with desperate panting*

[Wonko]

The newsgroup alt.binaries.multimedia.buffy-v-slayer

The FAQ is at http://www.geocities.com/btvsfaq/abmbvs-faq.html

There was a thread a while ago about it but I can't be bothered looking for it Hope this helped.

Edited to add:

The first Season 5 boxed set is coming out in the UK next month. Does NZ use PAL format for videos? If so you can preorder the tapes from Blackstar.co.uk. I believe they have free worldwide delivery.

Wonko

[This message has been edited by Wonko (edited May 18, 2001).]

[shazza]

Thanks. At this stage I have no idea what usenet is or how to get into it so I will have to research that. As far as I know we can use PAL videos so I might have to consider that option. Bit pricey though. but thanks

[de-caff2]

or you could buy tapes of all episodes - up to the most recent ones - at eastlant@kua.net (US$12/tape, which means that it's 2 (ntsc) to 4 (pal) epies per tape). the latest episode in their program is "twotw"!
here's where you can check there archive http://www.infinitefrontiers.mcmail.com ... /Angel.htm

anyways, that's where i'm about to get "my " season 5 from. hope that the info is of some use...

de-caff2

p.s.: oooops, sorry for the constant editing!

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yup, that's me..."[p]robably just your
garden variety disaster."

[This message has been edited by de-caff2 (edited May 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by de-caff2 (edited May 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by de-caff2 (edited May 18, 2001).]

[Naturegal]

Yeah, I just ordered my BTVS season 1-3 tapes from them. Very friendly and helpful. Great price!

Note: You can also get 8 eps on a tape if you take the EP version. The cost is $8 for the first tape and $7 for all remaining tapes.

[This message has been edited by Naturegal (edited May 18, 2001).]

[ryankelly]

xita--thank you for saying what I have been struggling not to say for quite some time now(and in a nicer, more diplomatic way than I might have been able to muster)

tvsurfer--If you leave the board, I'll be sorry to see you go, I've enjoyed your presence on the board until recently. It seems to me that you have real problems with and are very upset by the amount of violence on Buffy. For that reason alone Buffy probably isn't the best show for you...at then end of the day the show is about Buffy and Buffy is a slayer of vamps, demons and other nasties.
As for your disatisfaction with W/T, I feel your pain, but I truly believe that Joss and Co. have created something wonderful with them and that things will only get better from here. I have watched Buffy from the beginning and I have loved the show(ALL parts of the show) from the beginning. W/T has only made me love it more, but god forbid there was no more W/T I would still watch because I am invested in the lives of all of "Buffy's" characters. Since this is not the case for you, I can see why "Buffy" isn't giving you what you need. I hope you don't give up on "Buffy" yet, or this board for that matter. If you do, let me just say thanks for your participation.

cheers,
ryan

[Strangyr]

I've read you guys talking about the wildfeed......whats the wildfeed?

[Ed Wood]

Please can anyone explain how can I download eps from the internet, I read the faq but still don't get it. What is a newsgroup? The reason I ask that is becouse Spiral is airing on Sky One in UK tonight and my cable is broken and will be fixed in a couple of days. So I need to download just that episode if it's still available. Thanks in advance!

[Rane]

um, Re: sister stuff. glory is kinda is like his conjoined twin, no? i mean, she's always been attached to him, inside him, with him, he grew up with her. she is his sister in that sense. i wouldn't take the how sister thing too seriously anyhow. i have a *fake* sister but i still call her my sister. she just had a kid too so i'm a *fake aunt* now! woo hoo!

edited to add: a wildfeed is satellite broadcast of the show before teh regular tuesday time slot. sunday at five am some kittens get it and post about the new episode. i'm saying it all wrong but there is a thread somewhere here about it.

[This message has been edited by Rane (edited May 18, 2001).]

[Wonko]

EdWood - if you are using Outlook Express then go to the menu 'Tools' then click on 'Newsgroups' Find the right group in the list that pops up and subscribe. You'll then be able to see the messages posted to the group. If you read the FAQ in conjunction with that, you should get it.

I don't think Spiral is still up though. All in all, probably easier to get someone to tape it for you

If you're not using Outlook Express, I can't help you.

There seem to be a few people looking for more detailed instructions. Is the old thread still around? That was how I learned how to do it. But I only know enough to go on once a week and get the ep - I'm no expert. Maybe someone with 'the knowledge' could open a new thread, since I don't think the mods would be too happy if this took over the discussion thread.

Wonko

[BBOvenGuy]

The old thread got killed on the grounds that it's a potential lightning rod for evil lawyer-beasts. We don't want to go blabbing too loudly about things that FOX frowns on and actively tries to shut down.

April's the one who wrote the USEnet FAQ. I'm sure when she gets here this morning she'll decide how to handle communicating info to people.

And now back to our regularly-scheduled episode discussion...

[Ed Wood]

Thanks Wonko!

But I still have problems!
I get the list of newsgroups but Buffy is not listed! Now maybe I'm doing something wrong couse there are only like 5000-6000 of them. Only similliar one is alt.binaries.multimedia but there aren't any ep's to download! Help!
Also, if it's becouse of the newsgroups server, could you tell the name of the server you get those ep's? Thanks in Advance!

[april]

okay, there's a lot of stuff for me to respond to here, so i'll jump in:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tvsurfer:

BBOG, I would have fully agreed with your points #1-4, IF they had followed the same pattern with tara that they have with the other characters.

---

tvsurfer, i have no problem with you expressing your opinions, or saying that you dislike the show/the way they are handling w/t. everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and i respect that. i like to think that we don't censor people on this board just because we don't agree with them. however, as evinced in the above quote, the way you choose to express your dislike of the show and your disagreement with other people's opinions often comes off as antagonistic. you single people out, and then tell them that they're wrong, and you don't always phrase things very diplomatically. at this board, we insist that everyone respect each other's opinions, even if they might not agree with them.

now personally, i don't want to see you leave the board. you've been a great contributor to some very thoughtful discussions about BtVS, and are good at finding news tidbits to post. whether you choose to stay or go, however, i hope that we can all use this as an example of why respect is the best policy, and make sure that our posts reflect that.

whew. okay, on to other matters...

i have ordered tapes from Eastlant, the place that decaff2 reccommended, and have found them to be very conscientious and reliable. they're also very nice people! however, they quality of the tapes isn't very good, especially if you choose EP and get 6-7 eps per tape. if quality is what you want, i'd look elsewhere to get eps.

and finally, downloading buffy eps. sigh.

there are 2 ways you can download buffy eps from the net:
1. using the USEnet newsgroup alt.binaries.multimedia.buffy-v-slayer

2. using a special buffy IRC channel on EFNet

the USEnet groups usually only have a few buffy eps up at once, so you often have to wait for quite a while to get a large number of them. with EFnet, you may have to try for a while, but there are people there who have every single buffy ep up and available for download.

now then, i wrote an FAQ for how to download eps via method #1, which unfortunately is on my home computer. when i get home tonight, i'll be happy to repost it. it does, however, assume that you know what newsgroups are and how to use them. len and i are searching right now for a good site that explains those basic concepts.

method #2 is a little trickier. a while back, we decided not to post any instructions about how to download buffy eps using this method, because the people that operate the buffy channel on EFNet are in danger of being shut down if folks aren't discrete in discussing it. so here is what i'll do: if people aren't having luck getting eps using method #1, then after the season finale airs and it's officially summer rerun period, folks can find me in chat at night and i'll walk them tnrough how to download eps.

i'm easiest to find on yahoo messenger: my ID is rriotdemon. again, please don't message me about using EFNet until after the season finale has aired. things are just too crazy for me until after that.

so look tonight for the USEnet FAQ, which i promise to post the moment i get home!

hope this has been helpful... quote:

[april]

double-posting to add:

i'm going to start a newsgroup thread right now. all discussion about that should take place there, and not in this thread, where we are discussing the weight of the world. i will move any subsequent newsgroup-related posts that people put in this thread over to the newsgroup thread.

now, back to TWOTW!!!!

[Wonko]

Ed Wood - are you sure you're seeing the whole name of the groups? Outlook does this thing where it only shows a certain number of characters and if the name is longer than that then you can't see it. You just have to keep looking through trial and error. It may be because of your news server though. I am on ntlworld.

If you want any more info I'll try to help you but bear in mind I'm not an expert Email me at wonkots42@ntlworld.com if you need any help so we don't clog up the board

Wonko

edited to add - sorry, april, this is in the wrong place. My bad

~~~~~~~~~~~~
A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
he drinks the blood of sheep by force,
he follows a lifestyle we can't endorse,
the vampire horse, Count Ed!

[This message has been edited by Wonko (edited May 18, 2001).]

[Dazey]

quote:

---

Originally posted by GODisTigger:
When the camera starts to pull away from the shot of Ben undressing, he already removed his shirt and was almost done with the drawstring pants.

---

First, ewwww to that image.

Second, don't you mean flattering drawstring pants?

Third, I agree--this is not a continuity error. The tracking shot through the locker room was deliberately slow to allow enough--just enough--time for the morph, dressing, and coming around behind the demon.quote:

[GODisTigger]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dazey:
Second, don't you mean flattering drawstring pants?

---

I was soooo tempted to add flattering but I restrained myself.

quote:

---

Third, I agree--this is not a continuity error. The tracking shot through the locker room was deliberately slow to allow enough--just enough--time for the morph, dressing, and coming around behind the demon.

---

Slow enough to allow the morph but not too slow as for us to say "Come on!!! Get on with it already!!"

Dquote:quote:

[BlackLab]

Getting back to lovely tidbits from WOTW:

The welder looked like the guy who met up with Dawn outside the magic shop (in Real Me?) - I'm thinking that maybe because it was way before key-using-time, folks who were brain-sucked by Glory simply "read" her differently, like the man in the hospital who said there was no data on her. Later in the season, she was recognized as the key.

RE: brain-sucked-Tara: one good thing I've noticed on repeat viewings of the last few eps: W/T closeness has gone through the roof! Remember the bad old days when Willow & Tara didn't sit next to each other on the couch, didn't hug each other after one thought the other was hurt? Now Willow constantly puts her arm around Tara's shoulders, smoothes her hair, strokes her cheeks & forehead, and holds her arm while walking. You know I'm not complaining about that .

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"We're here! No rear! Get used to it!" - rallying cry of the Diminished Glutes, Hank's support group: King Of The Hill