Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

[tyche]

My fiance sent me an email neatly summarising all of the dialogue in 'Grave'. Thought I'd share, since we need a laugh or two:
[quote:a800de1a9d][b:a800de1a9d][i:a800de1a9d]Quote:[/i:a800de1a9d][/b:a800de1a9d]

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The second hour was the worst ending to any season of
BTVS ever. Most of it seemed to go like this:

Random character: Willow, you have to stop.
Willow: But I don't want to.
RC: No, really, you can't do this.
W: Can too.
RC: But this is evil, it's wrong.
W: No shit, Sherlock.
RC: Willow, please stop.
W: How about if Buffy & I fight?
Buffy: Cool! And while we're fighting, we can spout
tired action movie cliches!
W: Excellent! I can say, "Get off me, superbitch!"
B: Good one! And I can say, "And I'll show you what a
slayer really is!"
Xander: Who wrote this shit?
Giles: Don't forget about me! I can spout the cliches
too, only with an English accent!
W: And I can pronounce 'amateur' just like the Brits
do!
G: I noticed. Very impressive.
W: Thank you. But I think we should get back to
fighting.
G: Did I mention I'm apparently now a witch too?
Xander: I thought you were busy doing MANCHILD.
G: Please don't bring that up.
Dawn: In the last act, I get to fight with a sword!
Anya: And for some reason, I can now teleport, even
though I never could before.
Spike: That's nothing. I go all the way to Africa, and
apparently forget to be specific about wanting the
chip out. You'd think I would've remembered to mention
that.
X: I've got you all beat. I bring Willow back with a
'yellow crayon' story.
W: Don't remind me.
Tara: On second thought, maybe dying wasn't so bad.
David Fury: I feel shame.

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[/quote:a800de1a9d]

[Ange]

Thing i didn't like in Two to go. The Rack scene. Willow was affraid of his touch obviously. She didn't want him to be too close.
I'm sure that she didn't want to have another touch on her than Tara's. Glad he is out of the picture.

Ange.

[kins78]

I think my kitty cat summed up the season best...

After spending the entire two hour season finale on my lap occasionally nipping at my toes, as the credits rolled he lept off my lap, meandered over to the middle of the living room right in front of the TV and promptly threw up a big ole hairball. There we have it folks, direct from the mouths of kittens of all shapes and sizes!

[AutumnT]

Oh God Rally. You just killed me with a crayon.

[Rally]

Autumn, it's just enthusiasm for killing the lesbians. Go deadness for the lesbians.

[urnofosiris]

Rally that was brilliant

They aired IWMTLY on Dutch tellie tonight, I didn't know and I accidently tuned in when Buffy is talking to the dying Aprilbot. I watched that talk and her subsequent words to Xander. How ironic that she could manage to summon up so much more sympathy and understanding for a robot she had just met than she could for her best friend who *always* stood by her.

Very well written indeed.


[quote:abcec2582d][b:abcec2582d][i:abcec2582d]Quote:[/i:abcec2582d][/b:abcec2582d]

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Well let's not feel bad for Amber. She after all is getting her first movie directed by her out very soon with a stellar cast. I think it'll be a success as well.

---

[/quote:abcec2582d]

Oh really? You know something we don't? She finished her movie a year ago now. Don't get me wrong, I want it out tomorrow. I read the script, it is brilliant, and I want Amber to have all she could ever want and then some, she has earned it ten times over. Ah and I shall feel for her whatever I want. She did *not* get her credit due from Joss Whedon.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Yeah, the lack of respect or sorrow over Tara's death is glaring. And that as much as anything else bothers me. For a character that the writers claimed to love and love writing for, for a character whose importance was played up all season... what, a little emotion and maybe a funeral was too much to ask? It was necessary to make our last image of her be them carting her out in a body bag? I don't understand why it was necessary to do it *this way*. It all comes across as a big "Fuck You" from Joss to the W/T fans. And for the life of me I don't understand why.

[FaithfulGlory]

i must say that this finale was better then 'angel's
however, thats basically like saying 'i like tara more than oz'
as in, not much.

why was spike in it?
why did it end on him?
eww! nobody cares! hello? did you guys not get the memo? spike = over

i screamed in glee at giles' arrival
who-hoo!
but then it was done. blah again.

when willow said ' i feel everyone' or whatever, i thought she meant she could feel tara too and that it'd be better, but noooo

why xander?
why crayons?

her hair has not been that red in a long time

[eccentrictulip]

rally & tyche--you just made my day!! i was at work when the thing aired, so i taped it, but you know....i don't even think i'll bother watching. for me, this whole thing is going to end right after that kiss with tara saying *i hope so, that's the best part...* the finale and the rest of the ep simply do not exist. unless by some miracle she comes back next year (ha ha ha) then i may renegotiate....

[UnrealisticExpectations]

My best friend, Kristi, is straight and not a W/T shipper. She has wanted "evil" Willow for a long time now. Since season 3, actually. And she hated these episodes. Further, she thought Tara's death was pointless and that there were various ways Willow could have been "evil" but got Tara back in the end.

And oh my god, I was so proud of her, she got the lesbian cliche without me even saying anything. That disgusted her also. That she isn't even gay and she could see the message that if you are gay and ingage in sexual activity you will pay. Kristi also said that it's sad that someone actually views the world the way that Joss apparently does.

[Kendahl897]

Face it folks, they don't give a fuck about us. They made that painfully clear with DeKnight's interview. ( the whole 'Joss is a christian' thing floored me). It's the Spuffy fans they're interested in. At this stage of the game, what's the point in even watching. No one can be happy, that's their motto....Oh wait, Xander and Anya will probably reunite next year, but that's all good, they're heterosexual.....Bitter, huh?

[neroden1]

Well, that "episode" sure was a load of ***, wasn't it.

(to the tune of "Where do we go from here")
Where did the writing go?...


Why the episode was called "Grave":
it put the series in there for good.

[juri sempai]

You know, I could probably take Xander saving Willow if I could've actually believed the things he was spewing out of his mouth. Well, actually, no. I wouldn't have been able to take it. I guess it would have just been a little nicer if I could believe what he was saying. Even if I KNOW that the only person who could've saved her was Tara.

Anyways, yes. Xander. The things he said. I couldn't FEEL his sincerity. He was just up there reciting lines. Telling a story that... that was just dumb.

This whole episode I was sitting there thinking "what the heck is going on here?" I didn't understand where half of the stuff was coming from. Like it was just thrown in there to be interesting... and it wasn't.

Dumb dumb episodes.

[Hemiola]

I'm not much in the way of a writer, but let me throw out this idea, i.e., the way the season [i:8d1993d2bf] should[/i:8d1993d2bf] have ended:

Of course, W & T get back together, but Warren shoots Buffy, which precipitates Willow's fall off the "magic wagon". Word of this gets to Giles and the Devon Coven, who then transfer their magic to [b:8d1993d2bf] Tara[/b:8d1993d2bf] (not Giles!), and it is then Tara (not Xander!) who "brings Willow back through the power of love".

Maybe I'm stupid, but it seems to me like this would have been a much more sensible way to go......
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Protected by WITCHCRAFT"
text of a bumper-sticker on a car I recently followed

[xita]

Some ratings information shared with me:

From media week

Yesterday's Winners:
JAG (CBS), Gilmore Girls (WB), Frasier (NBC), Smallville (WB), Judging Amy (CBS), NYPD Blue (ABC)
-Yesterday's Losers:
That's Incredible: The Reunion (ABC)

Should Have Been Better:
Buffy, the Vampire Slayer (WB), 24 (Fox), Scrubs (NBC)



In the land called weblet, the WB ended its successfully revived Tuesday on a winning note with season finales of Gilmore Girls (#4, 5.2/ 8) and Smallville (#5, 5.6/ 8) outdelivering back-to-back episodes of Buffy, the Vampire Slayer (8 p.m. #6, 4.1/ 6; 9 p.m. season finale: #6, 4.3/ 6) by an average of 29 percent. Expect another solid season ahead for Gilmore Girls and Smallville.

_______________



Summary



May Sweeps Metered Market ratings



This yr.........Last yr...diff.

3.6/5............4.6/7.....-1.0 ..........Entropy

3.8/6............4.8/8.....-1.0 ..........SR

4.0/6............4.7/8.....-0.7.......... Villans

4.1/6............5.5/8.....-1.4...........Two to Go

4.3/6 2nd hr NA.........................Grave

[Epicurus]

I'm not liking the fact that the ratings kept increasing from Entropy though to Grave when they should have declining.

[xita]

these are overnight, we won't hear the nationals for a few days.

[neroden1]

Probably just the end of season phenomenon. "How can they write themselves out of this mess? I'll just watch till the end of season... Damn, they didn't get themselves out." It's next season's season opener ratings which will tell the true story.

[Kendahl897]

Well, I'm a Nielsen household, and I can say that they lost my viewership last night. I decided to take DeKnight's advice, y'know, if you don't like it, don't watch it............

[kpmuse]

Salon.com interview of the finales. Sigh. People are not really hearing the core of what we are saying the problem is. I think they are listening with one ear. Blasted Mercury Retrograde!

ME is not anti gay people! Hear it! Get it! That's not the problem! Darn!

www.salon.com/ent/tv/feat...index.html

[Merimra]

Ok, I know it's been a couple of days since the ep aired, but it's taken me this long to organize my thoughts about it in a coherent fashion, and even then, i'm not entirely sure this is gonna come out right. No rant here, i don't think, just some thoughts. ok, here goes nothing...

I actually liked TTG, and some part of me hates that fact, but i thought Grave was a bore. i kept looking at my watch hoping Willow *would* destroy the world and take me out of my misery... Anyway, aside from the "you need to get every square inch of your ass kicked" line, the writing on this episode was pathetic.

Giles: while I like him, and I did miss him, they had him say some pretty stupid things in this episode. "He saved us, he saved us all?" Come on. And what's with the whole "I'm dying" thing? And the laughing fit-- totally inappropriate, but I guess it's been said many times before.

Anya: the definition of what makes a demon in the Buffyverse keeps changing... This is supposed to be Anyanka? From season 3? Dopplegangland, anyone?

Spike: who cares. Used to like his character quite a bit, but, honestly, why was he even in this episode? And he's the new Angel? Oh, yeah, I'm sure there's going to be a "twist" to it. Can't wait to see what it is! Yeah, right...

Dawn: I like her. But I'm not interested in seeing her become the new Slayer. Is anyone?

Xander: I know a place where he can put that yellow crayon. "I never get to be the hero," got old after, oh, 5 seconds. Wake up Xander! Stop your whining! You were the hero of the VERY FIRST season finale, 'member? Bringing Buffy back to life and all? Maybe this is what TPTB meant with "going back to the beginning?"

Buffy: really needed to get every square inch of her ass kicked. dunno why. Maybe just as payback for what I saw in Normal Again. i dunno. it just felt good to see that.

Willow: Poor Willow. So much pain. So sad to see her not letting herself feel it. So much sadder to see the scene where she finally did...

How will she come back from this? Well, I guess it's not hard to see what the writers TRIED to do. First, she was out for revenge. Killing a human, any human, was bad. Then we got the whole "But Warren's a killer" bit, which I totally understand, but that led to "Ok, then Andrew and Jonathan are the line she can't cross..." Then the twist: DMWillow wants to destroy the world, but it's because she really, really just wants to *save* everyone, and in her confusion, destruction is the only way to do it. We were given the impression that it wasn't even Willow at all, by having her refer to herself in the third person many times. So, I'm thinking they're just going to have the Scoobs put this behind them very quickly, just like they did with Buffy after NA. Maybe a trip to the zoo will do the trick, this time...

Nah, I dunno how they'll ever have her be the same. I know they're going to justify it with any of the excuses I said before, but it'll never be the same. Not for me anyway. I mean, they did it with Buffy after NA, but *I* still can't get over that. I hate when the characters I love become unrecognizable...

Tara: She's dead? oh, see, for a minute there I forgot, 'cause there was hardly ANY mention of her. Right. That character had so much potential, and it was all wasted. I've been saying that since season 4, but now that the end has really come, I'm totally sure that Joss and co. have really lost their talent for making good tv. I kept hoping against hope that they would come to their senses about what Tara could do for the show, but apparently they had their own ideas about what that meant... Y'know, 'cause it's never been done before. Jenny wasn't brutally killed, which made Giles go all crazy. And Angel wasn't seriously hurt, which made Buffy try to kill Faith. Oh, and let's not forget, Tara wasn't brain-sucked just LAST YEAR, which made Willow go all dark magicky. Right.

Bottom line of what has, indeed, become a rant (and a long one at that, sorry) is that ME has run out of ideas. They're just re-using all the previous plots, only making them 10x worse. I think *that's* what they meant by "going back to the beginning." A season about "growing up?" Well, I think they were more mature at the end of last season, when Buffy sacrificed herself for the world, Xander and Anya seemed to have reached a more stable and mutually respectful stage in their relationship, and Willow and Tara got back together and promised to always find each other. Hell, even Spike seemed honestly in love with Buffy, withOUT a soul...

Will I watch next year. Yeah, probably. I promised myself I wouldn't way back in s4 if anything happened to Tara. But that was two years ago, and I feel I've invested too much of my time in this show to not see it through. I know I'll regret it. I'll regret it like I regret having watched *this* season, and not stuck with my original plan of stopping after "The Gift." 'Cause THAT was a perfect ending to what, at that time, was the best show on tv.

Sad, confuse, and missing Tara terribly,

Ilia M.
"Tara MacClay, she saved my heart. A lot."

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Joss is a Christian? Well hoping that it is a 'nice' faith good for him. Where's this from?

I also am sure Amber will do wonderful with her movie. I intend to be *looks at all the anxious kittens* well first in line is dead wrong I'm sure but definately within the top 1000

I want to take a moment to give a rant on Xander/Anya though if it's warranted.

I don't want to see this couple together and it's nauseating the idea of it along with Spike/Buffy. Both relationships may be hetreosexual (like this is necessarily a plus) but I upfront say that both are abusive and HORRIBLE relationships.

We've seen Spike beat Buffy up, We've seen in the 'flashforward' Xander KILL Anya, we've seen Anya try to kill Xander FIVE times, we've seen Spike try to RAPE Buffy, we've seen Buffy beat up Spike, and we've seen their own idiosynchrosies bordering on loathing their partners

I liked Tara/Willow because they were nice and NORMAL. They were affectionate and caring and they were friends.

Xander and Anya were SICK from the get go and disregarding all the jealousy written into it I'm fairly sure that Willow saw it upfront that Anya wasn't right for Xander and vice versa.

And I don't even want to touch the message being sent with Spuffy that a woman should take back a man from an abusive relationship just because 'he's changed'

[JJtheCool]

Joss had read this article in Salon, he might have saved us a lot of pain and aggravation.

Lessons on killing a long-term popular character

I'd actually say something about the 2-part finale itself, but I think I'll take Bob's advice and wait until things cool off.

[Lisa of Nine]

KPMUSE,
thank you for bringing this article to our attention. I sent a letter to the editor in response, but since it's long, I doubt they will post it.

I WILL post it here, and anyone who wants to use parts or all of it to send to any publication, please feel free to do so.
Lisa

**********
The comment made my Stephanie Zacharek makes it very clear that she is not reading the boards she is attempting to quote.

"The season finale of "Buffy," which aired Tuesday night, followed weeks of buzzing on "Buffy" online message boards, some of which have been vibrating resoundingly with charges that "Buffy" is anti-gay, misogynist, or both. Some fans in the lesbian community have asserted that by killing off one-half of the show's lesbian couple -- Tara, the girlfriend of the very mild-mannered, very brainy but also, we now know, very powerful Willow -- Whedon destroyed one of the few positive lesbian role models on television. Thus, they argue, it follows that he's most certainly anti-gay, " (Stephanie Zacharek. "Willow, destroyer of worlds," May 22, 2002).

The assertion that the so-called "lesbian community" is calling Mutant Enemy, and in particular, Joss Whedon "most certainly anti-gay" is wrong and antagonistically misleading. The "lesbian community" that I frequent is saying that killing off yet another lesbian adds to the hundreds of dead lesbians in Hollywood's history. It isn't that Hollywood dares to kill "a" lesbian, it's that they kill ALL the lesbians.

Mutant Enemy's own writers acknowledged this horrible clich and promised gay fans they would not use it. "Willow and Tara are going to have a good, happy, satisfying relationship. That's something that we're more acutely aware of
and we definitely don't want to touch on 'being a lesbian is bad.' We've all seen shows where if you have any kind of gay tendencies, you must be killed or made to suffer for no other reason other than you're gay. We're hyper aware of that..." Buffy writer, Doug Petrie (Sci-Fi Universe 2/21/00)

It's the fact that Mutant Enemy mislead the gay community into believing that one lesbian couple could find happiness. Joss Whedon publicly told us that Tara would not go anywhere. "I have no plans to send Tara anywhere. Amber (Benson) and Alyson (Hannigan) have such great chemistry; they're so great together, and they're very romantic together. We have terrible, terrible things to
do to them because they're on my show, so needless to say, horrible things will happen--but as a couple, I think they work really well. As for Amber, even if she weren't going out with Willow, I think she's become a big part of the heart of the show." (Buffy producer, Joss Whedon. Entertainment Weekly 5/01). We were mislead mere months ago, well after "Seeing Red" was planned. "As for Tara getting killed--OVER MY DEAD BODY!" (Steven Deknight, Buffy writer. Bronze Beta 1/25/02) We've been consistently told things that certainly seem to differ from the facts. "Amber (Benson) and Emma (Caulfield) are both sticking around, neither one is going anywhere, so don't worry." (Drew Greenberg, Buffy writer. Bronze Beta, 4/01/02) We feel betrayed by their words.

They went ahead and used the clich they swore they were above. The story sends a homophobic message- that being a lesbian can only lead to death or insanity. The intent of the writers doesn't matter. The message has been sent. Read any textbook on rhetorical analysis and you will see that the effect of the message is the only thing you can examine. The motives of the rhetor can truly never be known. We object to the message. We object to the dishonorable way in which they dealt with us. They said one thing and did another. They gladly accepted praise in the gay media. The accepted the accolades for giving us a positive portrayal of lesbians that didn't sink to the clich, all the while planning to murder Tara. By Whedon's own admission, this was not a spur of the moment decision.

To add further fuel to the fire of fan discontent, Whedon and others make jokes that some consider in very poor taste regarding this issue. In Joss Whedon's on-line comments, he jokes about another character that "The gay thing is so pass. We're over that. But honestly, that's just the way Clem ACTS. We're having a talk," (Posted by Joss Whedon - May 22, 2002.UPN Bronze).

Joss Whedon gladly accepted praise for his sensitive portrayal in magazines such as Out, The Advocate, and Curve. Now that he has killed Tara, he said it was because he had to prove that he could kill her. It was because everyone told him he couldn't kill her because she was gay. "Because stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay," Posted by Joss Whedon - May 22, 2002. UPN Bronze. He seems to forget that HIS writers were the ones who publicly said they wouldn't kill Tara because they wanted to avoid the clich.

In my opinion, this is a disgusting and hurtful example of a television show using the gay fanbase and exploiting them. Joss Whedon's writing team claims that Tara was treated like any other character, but then in other interviews they admit that her death was planned from the beginning. She was a plot device to make Willow evil. Willow and Tara were never given equal treatment on screen.

The heterosexual couples were shown having sex in graphic detail. I think Buffy and Spike's scenes of sex in alleys or on catwalks belonged on cable. Yet, WIllow and Tara were only shown having sex through metaphor until this season. Their sex was shown through "spellcasting." In the last year, Willow and Tara were allowed to kiss on screen, but only fleeting pecks on the lips. Spellcasting, the metaphor for lesbian sex, became an addictive substance that helped lead to Willow's fall into evil. The episode that finally allowed a passionate kiss then links that passion with Tara's death. This is the classic Hollywood clich of lesbian sex ending in death. Even Whedon's writers have agreed. During a Succubus Club radio interview on 5/15/02, David Fury admitted the following: " In retrospect, I can see the clich . That was not our intent, we wanted to show (Willow and Tara) together and happy. We dramatized them being back together. It created the impression in a lot of people's mind that the event of her death was linked to them having sex. I do understand it, I say oh yeah. It was not intended. We make mistakes." Again, I point out that Mutant Enemy's intent is not what is so upsetting. It's the effect this has when added with all the other lesbian deaths on TV and in film.

This has devastated lesbian fans. Joss Whedon promised gay fans he would not do this. Whedon lead us to believe that he understood what this one positive lesbian relationship meant to a group plagued by hatred and abuse. "...one post from a gay or questioning teen saying the show helped them is worth six hundred hate letters...Here's the word: Tara's not gonna disappear. She's part of the show, part of Willow's life," (Joss Whedon. Bronze Beta 5/24/00).

Then he used the clich and is surprised that we are upset. This is why we are upset, the praise and ratings he gladly accepted, the many examples of he and his staff assuring us that he would not end this relationship in death or heartache, his assertions that he cared about "questioning teen(s)." All this led up to the brutal and bloody death that came less than three minutes after Willow and Tara kiss and share sexual innuendo. He is an educated man. How can he not expect that to send a message that Tara's death was related to her sexuality?

I suggest that Stephanie Zacharek read "the Celluloid closet," or at the very least, watch the video by the same name.

Respectfully,
YOUR NAME HERE!

[friskylez]

Willowhugger guy, Dont ya know its all about getting the "boys" to watch and the more misogynistic crap ya have on your show the more the younger "boys" will watch...A little rape, a little dark sex, a little demeaning of the little woman, a little "im so helpless" with out a guy to save the world..
Sheesh im still phucking pissed and will be pissed until i decide not to be pissed any more...Which may be a very long time..

I have never been one for hating the men, i have alot of male friends gay and straight, but g** damn Im pissed that this is how they decide to get the male viewers...good god what does that say about our society and the young men who will be growing up soon Be proud of yourself Joss, ME and the writers..You have done well, you certainly gave them what they needed not what they wanted

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Pardon me as a hetreosexual male I'm more turned on by women who are capable and not emotionally needy but fun to be around.

Hence why I watch Buffy (or at least that's the theory) as opposed to....well I guess I'm going to say Buffy.

For escapist entertainment I'm considering personally going cold turkey on television myself for a while. I write children's books for a living inbetween college and it seems that after a time like this I should go back to work on the sequel to my story "The Wooing of Ozma" (shameless plug even though it won't be out for five months)

Back in the Oz books they're were never any deaths, all the villains were silly, and the good guys never had to go through trauma.

Furthermore I'm happy to say I'm already spawning a fanfic genre for Oz with all the Ozma/Dorothy, Milo/Dorothy and Dorothy/Ozma/Milo (Milo is my creation and for once a hero who DOESN'T need to verbally abuse his lover in Ozma) fanfic on my list

I hope WB retools it's lost in Oz concept to something less dark than the Buffy rip off it currently works for. It's nothing like the books and by proxy my book which is Teen Oz.

God when did it become fashionable to hate women in a genre devoted to guys who like them that way? Oh yes, UPN. How Ironic.

[friskylez]

Ya know WillowHugger guy, you seem like a pretty cool dude , I think somewhere its gotten lost on the "next generation" of young men growing up that its all about respect..Respecting women...I hope they will eventually "get it" but with the bile Joss and people like him keep spewing out regarding women i dont know if that will happen

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Thank you very much :-)

Personally I just hope it's the "new management" of UPN and not something that is infecting the sum of what I've been hoping was a turn around for my generation's sex.

Then again with how popular Vince and his boyz are and what UPN gained with Buffy....not sure.

[hilarita]

lisa of nine- great post. i hope they read it.

[tyche]

www.televisionwithoutpity.com/story.cgi?show=12&story=3477