Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

[VampNo12]

Oh don't even get me started on Ed he really had me going for awhile, and I bet we won't be hearing from him again. I too love the banner, and would love to wipe the happy smile off of Deknight's face. Read the wildfeed now my big decision is watching the actual show and I am torn. Want proper closure, but these episodes are so fucked-up I don't know how I can handle watching it at least watching them sober. Maybe I will just get drunk and them maybe the enjoyment factor will be more tolerable.

[Rally]

I can see how they thought they were oh so clever, poking fun at themselves. Having Willow rip Buffy for sleeping with a vamp, make fun of whiny Dawn... Willow is the voice of the irrate fan in this episode. Ya know what it's not funny, if that is how the writers perceive the voice of the fan, then fuck them.

This was their whimsy to create this shit, this season, not ours. We happily plodded way knowing, trusting, having faith that in the end they would make everying ok.

What did they do? They made fun us, said, you guys are annoying bunch of whiners and we don't care. So, now I happily say the same to you ME. I don't care, pander your nonsense to someone else.

No Marti, I will not be watching, but yes [b:3848ecc1af] I HATE THE SHOW[/b:3848ecc1af].

[Rane018]

how dawn will ever forgive Willow as she taunts her with "mom. buffy. tara. wah." whining is beyond me. my mouth opened in shock when Willow said all that to Dawn, i was agape. Especially deminishing Dawn's pain over Tara when Dawn was the one to actually stayed with her body. and she was about ready to take her power too. It was sooo horrible. what the hell have they done to willow?

How can Willow be redeemed? This is not Willow anymore and no matter what happens in the end. even if she's drained from her power she did and said all these horrible things. After saying all the stuff she said to Dawn, to Buffy, to Giles... HOW?!

how the hell do they believe they can go back to a honky dory season next year? and as for spike... he never really asked for a soul. WHY ARE THEY GIVING HIM ONE?????! while tara's really dead too. if she had enough power to kill osiris why couldn't she bring Tara back? there are other dieties ya know?! they had her become this murdering vengful thing instead. i dont get it. i dont understand. this whole fucking story sucks ass and i'm sorry that i ever trusted Joss in the first place.

[Ange]

Ok, i saw them both. And well, honestly "Two to go" is a good episode. I liked it.

But "Grave"!! OMG, that's pure crap. For an ep22, that's crap. I won't even talk about the end, which is pure crap too.

Ange.

[JoanneHillier]

It's the next morning now, I'm slightly more calm but still two things really stood out in the episode that I still can't stand. Alot of it I can't stand but these are two big things....

1. Xander whining the whole episode, they had at least three scenes where he whined because he couldn't do anything. It was such a setup for the end of the episode where I knew he was going to be the one who saves the world. Come on? If they were gonna do this, at least build up there friendship during the season, cause they didn't seem particularly close. Also I expected better writing and foreshadowing from Buffy writers then to write Xander Whines, Whines, Whines and so at the end of the episode he is the hero. Why would Anya want to be married to him?

Wasn't the episode where there were two of him suppose to make him more confident? Now last night they had go back to the way he was at the beginning of the series.

Xander, you don't know magic, your not a slayer, your not a computer geek. Get over it and get on with your life!

2. Then the ending, I know it was partly because of the power Willow took from Giles, but come on Xander telling her he loved her, cared for her and some memories made Willow break down and be herself again? I don't buy it for one second, especially from Xander.

Also I'm pissed cause I'm sure they will ruin Taras memory next season by forgetting about her and damn I'm so paranoid they will have Willow get a man and well it wouldn't surprise me now with these writers.

Oh and Star Pixie, if you read this I'm sorry about last night.

[tyche]

Y'know, the only positive fan comment I've seen on this ep so far said that it was a compelling mixture of 'Practical Magic' and 'The Mummy'. And that's supposed to be a good thing HOW??

[xita]

oh tyche that is such a sad comment. This show used to be good. How sad.

[Scout]

Rane018
[quote:e42d065325][b:e42d065325][i:e42d065325]Quote:[/i:e42d065325][/b:e42d065325]

---

how dawn will ever forgive Willow as she taunts her with "mom. buffy. tara. wah." whining is beyond me. my mouth opened in shock when Willow said all that to Dawn, i was agape. Especially deminishing Dawn's pain over Tara when Dawn was the one to actually stayed with her body. and she was about ready to take her power too. It was sooo horrible. what the hell have they done to willow?

---

[/quote:e42d065325]
I cant believe they made Willow do that. Its like they sat down and said, were going to cut the heart out of this show and stomp it on the ground. Poor Aly, having to spew this garbage out in front of the camera.

And David Fury may have said that this was Willow under the influence, but its still Willow people are seeing. People arent going to forget over the summer just how bad it got.

I dont know how ME thinks they can do this to a favorite character and not have it negatively effect the show. Ill never understand what they were thinking.

[Rally]

The writers seemed to have gone out of their way to have Willow say every nasty and hurtful thing possible. Just further setting up the alienation of Willow to continue into next season.

It's shameful. However then we get Jonanthan set up to be the big new scooby for next season. Whatever, it's a joke.

[drusilla(d)]

i was really shocked when she talked to dawn that way, how are they going to fix the relationship between buffy and willow after tonghts show? Also, dawn and willow.

[Ange]

The only moments where Willow is Willow and we can recognize something in her yes and all, that's when she talks about Tara. The other things, that's not her speaking.

Ange.

[sparrow]

Crap, crapier, crapiest!!!

Yea this whole season made perfect sense and to have the perfect ending kill the essence of one of the beloved cast members by brutaly killing her girlfriend, thus thrusting her back into her addiction, which sends her off to burn to a cinder the world which has no meaning for her now and then to wrap up all this in a perfect little bow have her fight her best friend and then have the joker of the group spout three little words, "I love you", over and over again and this ends the reign of vengance. It's not like she had her heart ripped outby her girlfriends senseless death, the jokers' love saves the day. Yea, and monkeys fly out of my butt. Note my extreme use of sarcasm.

At least this shit year is over with and I don't have to watch this ever again. God I miss Tara and Willow together. And never could Xander bring back Willow from the edge with "I love you", how can those words bring you back when love was killed by a bullit. Stupid, stupid

[WilTaraFan]

You know what, I haven't yet had the chance to even see the two episodes yet because I don't have UPN and I just downloaded the clips for the full episodes. So, when I go home and unzip them, I'll watch them.

And after hearing what all of you are saying, I'm not sure I really want to. I had really been hoping that there might have been a reset or a reversal of some kind. Now, all my hopes are dashed. The only thing I can say is.....they have to bring her back next season!

[Rally]

The Resurrection of "Quippy Buffy"

The Resurrection of "Quippy Buffy"
Tuesday, May 21, 2002

Over the course of its first year on UPN, Buffy the Vampire Slayer has gone from wonderfully witty to downright depressing. However, leading lady Sarah Michelle Gellar promises that after the finale (airing tonight at 8 pm/ET), the series will resume as the title heroine would have put it in cheerier times making with the funny.

"[This season] was a little dark even for me," she admits to TV Guide Online. "So I think we're going to go back to a much lighter Buffy. This whole arc was, she was buried alive, she got out, and now she realized that she wasn't living and she wants to. So I think it's going to be and I'm hoping for the fun Buffy. I miss quippy Buffy."

The rising movie star who will hit the multiplex next opposite fianc Freddie Prinze Jr. in Scooby-Doo (opening June 14) won't reveal whether she plans to continue on as Buffy after 2003. "Everything is one day at a time," she insists. "That [decision] is about everyone sitting down and [evaluating whether] there's story to tell and if I think it'll be, you know... interesting."

Yet she believes that the show could and should forge ahead, even if a new Slayer must be chosen. "Absolutely," she says. "I don't know if it would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer per se, because you kind of need Buffy for that. But it doesn't mean that there's not [Buffy's kid sister] Dawn and [reformed vengeance demon] Anya. There are a lot of characters that could easily go on, and I'd hope that they would."

As a matter of fact, she hints that the powers that be may already have started to set the stage for a changing of the guard. "I think next year is really going to focus on Buffy teaching Dawn," she suggests. "Of course, this is totally speculation, because I really have no idea.

"I could tell you it's about Buffy joining the Peace Corps, and it could be just as accurate," she adds wryly. "Designer Peace Corps."

Hallelujah! Quippy Buffy is back! Charlie Mason with Tim Williams

[Arwen]

Gee, not to sound TOO bitter, but I think I'll toss this RIDICULOUS EXCUSE for entertainment out the window, and with complete unbridled relish watch and enjoy every-single-solitary-show that has EVER beat out or kicked BTVS's ass in ANY kind of award show EVER. No more do I feel sorry or indignant for Joss and Co. for losing out on those nominations, and being disredarded. Those brilliant people on the voting panel apparently had 20/20 + vision, and could see what a STUPID show this would become! Maybe with all of the attention we've been giving this shit show we've been missing out on something with the likes of West Wing, E.R., and all of the other shows that seem to kick Mutant Enemy's ass. I hope they will kick harder next year!!!! And might I add that I LOVE the banner at the top of the board. I might just hang it in my apartment window for the world to see!

(apologies for the offensiveness)

[kate]

Thanks for that Rally.

Please god no DTVS! Don't ME realise Dawn is the least popular character? I love MT, she is great but I really couldn't see this working. One season maybe, but all the good writers will want to move on at some point and it could just degenerate into lame soap terratory.

Kind of like this season. Huh.

[scifiacid]

[quote:84a5f6ef49][b:84a5f6ef49][i:84a5f6ef49]Quote:[/i:84a5f6ef49][/b:84a5f6ef49]

---

"That [decision] is about everyone sitting down and [evaluating whether] there's story to tell and if I think it'll be, you know... interesting."

---

[/quote:84a5f6ef49]

Jeez... that sentence just smacks 'I thought last season stories sucked' to me.

Of course, that could just be my jaded interpretation

[Zerattakis]

Bored now.

[Rally]

Seriously jaded, Dri, but, it's pretty amusing watching Marti, SMG, et all coming out now hinting at the crap they produced this season.

They can talk now all they want about how things "were a little to dark", but it doesn't change the damage they have done to the show and the characters.

I like Dawn, I like MT, but I don't want to see DtVS which of course, is exactly what they are setting up. It really insults me that the writers seem to think the fans are too stupid to follow their pathetic arc planning.

They need to lay off the crack and remember they are producing a tv show that got them where they are in the first place. The show became secondary to all the side projects, pet projects, jumping back and forth between Angel and Buffy. The show suffered because of all the pet projects and the desire to do something different.

I just wish one of them had the balls to come out and say that they fucked this season up. Instead of this hinting at it and allegations that it was someone else's fault.

It's all their fault, collectively, all of them.

[sparrow]

"Making with the funny", she misses cheery Buffy. Well how the hell are you going to get these when all hellmouth has sucked the life out of this show. Explain to me, like I'm a two year old, how Willow will ever be happy again after losing Tara and dealing with her skinning gig. This sucks!

[Zerattakis]

Well they have set up the funny arc already!!! the finale was HILLIARIOUS!

*tries not to think that it was 'meant' to be serious*

Zera

[JoanneHillier]

Yup sounds exactly like others have said, it seems like they are setting it up for Dawn to start fighting. What nonsense.

Also I hate being depressing, but I really wouldn't count on Tara coming back.

[Rane018]

it's the next day and my heart still hurts, my brain still doesn't comprehend and tonight's the finale here. good thing i wont be watching the telly. oh who am i kidding. i might as well watch it and finish the torture. I'm hoping to find closure but i know i wont. I never will. I'll always have this teeny bit of hope that next season Tara will be back. THey built up a lot of thisng this season that may play out next year but I'm so far up DeNile that there's really no point to even waste any more thoughts on this farce...

what really sucks about the whole willow evil thing is that they didn't go all the way with her evilness. she should have transformed completely and not cared about anything including tara if it was like the writers say that she's not all there. but the fact remains she's still pained by the fact tara is dead and she still goes out after all of them. so, it IS willow doing all this and since it is how the hell will she live next year knowing SHE did all this? Next year sure is reving up for much fun.

and it was brought up in chat re: anya being a vengeance demon and why Willow didn't just ask for Tara back (what i had mentioned was Anya's wish for Giles to not have given Willow all that power when she really should have said that and wished tara hadn't died. apparently the writers want Willow's power quest to be all the fault of the death and it makes no sense whatsoever)... BUT if Willow had wished to Anya that Tara not be dead... first, wouldn't Willow be sent to an alternate dimension? or was that just cordy's wish that turned out like that. CAn VD's bring people back to life? I thought they only hurt not killed.

secondly, Willow doesn't know Anya's a VD. Anya cant just say she's one either to someone wanting vengeance, right? so she couldn't say *hey! look at me I'm a VD now. Make a wish!* but Willow's power should have allowed her to notice Anya had her vengeance back. she could have drained anya too while she was at it, draining anything with power. hmm... i just realized glory did the same thing when she got all cranky. GOD THIS YEAR SUCKED!

ok, you know what?! starting right now i'm not going to let this bother me anymore. so what if ME made me believe and trust them to take a wonderful character and add an incredible pair to a television show that i absolutely loved. I cant believe how sickened i am by what happened and i dont think i can ever watch a television show the same way. it's been destroyed. my little safe space is gone and thanks ME for forcing me to grow up and realize that there are HUGE insensitive assholes everywhere (come on this was hollywood! but then again they are the ones perpetuating the whole cliche in the first place. so cudos for a job well done. how original of you.).

i guess i was just too naive wanting to believe people knew right from wrong in 2001.

[Strapping Lass]

So I've been lying awake all day trying to sleep (I'm on nightshift) and I just want to add something else about the finale thats REALLY pissed me off the more I've thought about it (apart from the lousy dialogue, total destruction of Willows character and hardly any mention of Tara )

Did anybody else think the bit where Johnathon and Andrew were in the truck to (I guess) Mexico and cringing away from the big butch and ( I suppose we are meant to think) gay trucker who is eyeing them up was incredibly offensive and yet another bit of the whole 'comedy' we are homophobic/but we're secretly gay 'humour' thing the writers have been doing with the trio all season?!
I thought it was unfunny and especially given what had happened over the end few eps in very, very bad taste

[DianaBouvier99]

This is a practice rant. I plan to post a rant on the bronze tonight so I'm just trying to get it right.


You know in my grief and rage over Tara there was one thing I missed about this season: I wasn't very good, period. I just downloaded Two to Go and Grave, to get closure. I had devoted almost six years to Buffy; writing and editing Fanfiction, buying tapes, CDs, DVDs. Searching the Web for spoilers, downloads, Wavs, Mpegs.... And now it's over.

I'm done.

There was not one foreshadowed point in the entire final. Not a one, other than Willow was a big bad Witch if she ever decided that she wanted to be powerful. I felt the writers kept trying to make excuses for why she just didn't kill Buffy or Dawn, or Xander and get it over with. If she could track, fly, and immobilize from a distance then why didn't she?

She didn't because it was just plain and simply poor writing.

The entire season has had none of the trade mark foreshadowing; where if we, the fans, would just pay more attention to detail we would be able to figure out the ending. It had none of the pizzazz that I expected from other seasons. All the season finale did was try to use tricks and FX to cover up bad writing and a mediocre performance by the lead character. I have to say for the first time in six years I've found fault with SMG's acting. The fact that I think she is one of my generation's greats is notwithstanding. I still think she is a wonderful professional but it still seemed, to me, that she was on cruise control since OMWF.

No fault could be found in Aly's acting; she tried, she really tried to pull it off. She couldn't help it if the writing and directing seemed to the miss major plot points. She really tried to pull it out at the end Grave with a no holds barred performance! But, look at what she had to work with? Yellow crayons and green light...oh, I forgot to mention the green light was actually 'good' magic from a coven in England...or so Giles' claimed in a long exposition at the end. (If one of my students had come up with this form of storytelling, popularly know as, "showing not telling" I would have flunked them for the semester.)

Now the very end is suposed to the cliffhanger, next season is supposed to be a return to the first. So what do we, the fans get? Another retread of a plot I thought long over and forgotten. Let's go Soulboy, the next generation!

Well good luck, BTVS, I won't be there to watch.

[Rosenberg]

You know, I think the only thing that could possibly make this any more ridiculous would be if they had a scene at The Bronze with Santana singing Black Magic Woman.

[Rally]

Buffy 6.21/6.22 FAQ

Whats it called?

Two to Go./Grave.

Whos responsible?

The Two to Go teleplay is credited to Doug Petrie (Flooded, As You Were.) The Grave teleplay is credited to David Fury (Life Serial, Gone).

What does TV Guide say?

Surprises abound as the Scooby Gang battles a rampaging sorceress in this stormy two-part sixth-season finale. In Part 1, several of the Scoobies who are still reeling from Tara's death try to spring Jonathan and Andrew (Danny Strong, Tom Lenk) from the Sunnydale jail before the nerdy pair are annihilated by the vengeful spellcaster. Meanwhile, the headstrong Dawn (Michelle Trachtenberg) seeks help from Rack (Jeff Kober), a Faustian magic broker. In the conclusion, which immediately follows, Buffy (Sarah Michelle Gellar) is assisted by a magical friend and the stage is set for a supernatural battle royal and the emergence of an unlikely hero.

In the second part of the sixth-season finale, a magical friend helps the Scooby Gang try to stop a sorceress. But the witch still has a few tricks up her sleeve and an unwilling assistant. Also: Spike's African sojourn comes to a climax.

What did Herc say about this one in his Tax Day spoilers?

Willow takes off after Warrens fellow Nerds of Doom. Giles returns, Spike returns, Buffy employs some very tough love, and young Ms. Rosenberg comes to her senses a little too late.

The big news?

Spike doesnt seem to lose his chip after all.

Does Spike return to Sunnydale?

No, his story ends in Africa. His return is of another kind: The last words he utters this season are, Make me what I was, so Buffy can get what she deserves!

Stupid question: the sorceress is Willow, right?

Theyre talking about Willow.

Is Giles the magical friend?

He is, and hes markedly more magical than we remember.

Is it true he teleports to Sunnydale?

It is. But theres an explanation.

Is Xander the unlikely hero?

I think so. Though the term applies to Dawn this week as well.

Is Wills unwilling assistant Miss Kitty Fantastico?

Fantastico is again wholly absent this week. The unwilling assistant theyre referring to I believe is Anya.

Whats up with Anya?

Anya is like the MVP this week. Shes not only proves useful, what with her demony ability to teleport, but she contributes the lions share of the funny this week.

Do Anya and Xander reconcile?

Not so much.

After Willow comes to her senses, do we get the big scene where she has some splainin to do?

No. The episode ends with the Scoobies segregated. Spike in Africa. Anya and Giles in the trashed Magic Box. Buffy and Dawn in the graveyard. And Willow and Xander embracing silently before a satanic temple.

What about that Buffy Year One stuff series creator Joss Whedon was talking about for next season? Did he mean it literally?
Does Willow send them back in time or anything at the end?

No.

Youre a liar, Hercules! Prove to us youve seen the finale by quoting a line of dialog that eerily echoes your infamous July 4 spoilers!

Are you kidding? asks Andrew as he flees the vengeful Willow. Shes like Dark Phoenix up there!

Whats good?

Screamy Willow. Anyas frustration with the cops during the whole Terminator homage, and Emma Caulfield generally. The
vampire who quotes Cobain. What Jonathan does to Andrews neck, and the Running Nerds generally. Giles reaction to Buffys update.

Whats not so good?

The final hour has too much of a warmed-over rehash quality, what with the floaty vengeance knives, the magical sticking to the ceiling, and Willows Glory-like feeding. Aside from the very final shot, its also devoid of amusing surprises and like 6.20 kind of slow-moving and yappy, as if they couldnt find enough story to pad out the hour. Dawn finally gets a nice moment in the sun, but it feels like too little too late. Buffy seems to realize shes invested in the world again but, um, didnt she already make that realization at the end of Gone? Also? What kind of slayer cant crawl out of a deep hole? And when did Giles switch to contacts?

How does it end, spoiler-boy?

Very well! We will return your soul!! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagggghhhh!!

Hercs rating for Buffy the Vampire Slayer 6.21?

***1/2

Hercs rating for Buffy the Vampire Slayer 6.22?

***

[drusilla(d)]

are we certain he is getting a soul? or are we just being tricked again?

[GODisTigger]

About Spike? I couldn't care less.

D

[drusilla(d)]

lol