"Some of my Best Friends are Gay" Wednesda

[AutumnT]

It was an interesting Tuesday here on the kitten. We got to defend ourselves over and over once again in the cliche' thread. And this comes on the heels of the "I'm not a homophobe, I've a gay godfather" type comments in [i:6d8e0137f4] The Advocate[/i:6d8e0137f4] interview and the whole "experimenting" flap from Wanda.

To me those folks who pretend to be your friends with the "some of my best friends are gay" type of approach to cover their mistakes or prejudices are the worst.

It's interesting but really [i:6d8e0137f4] Buffy[/i:6d8e0137f4] never really addressed homophobia. There were subtle moments like everyone's surprise at Willow's coming out, or the Doctor asking if Willow was a relative in [i:6d8e0137f4] Tough Love[/i:6d8e0137f4] but nothing really overt was shown unless you count the "Ellen" slam in [i:6d8e0137f4] Smashed[/i:6d8e0137f4]. (Feel free to bring up more if I have forgotten).

So, my question is do you think they faced homophobia that we did not see and how did they deal, and how have you dealt with instances you've been confronted with successfully.

[Lindy]

The issue wasn't really ever adressed. Actually there are no issues in the Buffyverse and nobody is actually gay. They are all individuals and treated as such. Buffyverse is far off in a different reality and does not resemble earth logic.

Oh, what about that social services lady where Buffy said there's nothing wrong with being gay and had 'magic weed' at home? Could that somehow count?

[willntlover]

Also in that ep, when the social worker asked if Willow lived there with Bufy liek a lover, buffy was all 'no not together' but i don't know if that counts.

[Rally]

I feel like waxing a bit philosophically at the moment so I am I going to address this from a certain angle and miss the point entirely. I do not feel that Willow and Tara have faced homophobia per se, but have faced ignorance and the human trait of assumption.

What are the reactions of Willows friends when they find out?
Buffy = That's great Will, Tara's a great girl.
Xander = Tara's your girlfriend?!
Giles = Bloody Hell!

Um not terribly supportive and probably overall the lot are in denial about Willow's choices. So here is where it gets tricky. Is it better from the gay perspective that your friends / relatives be in denial about your choice and not pass judgement without knowing the full story?

Is it ignorance or being open minded that they do not assume you are gay, because you have a "roommate" that you spend a lot of time with? You could say they are being blind to the truth, but they could counter that they did not wish to pass judgement.

If I were to guess before this season, I would say that Willow's reassurances that she is gay are to remind her friends, that she is still Willow, but this is not some phase in her life. It is not going away.

Did W/T face homophobia, not terribly and at the most, it came from their friends more than anyone. Perhaps not homophobia per se but deragatory statements, etc (Faith = So Willows not driving stick anymore).

I tend to think the comments made by Willow, were in ME's mind supposed to make up for the lack of a physical relationship that was obviously missing from W/T. A reminder to the audience that it was there, even if it could not be presented on screen. Also to remind Willow's friends that she wasn't going back to boys town.

Now if we could just get the rest of fandom to [i:7777e01962] get[/i:7777e01962] that.

<end ranty mode, off to play with her camera some more>

[Indygo]

[quote:cf5488b9c5][b:cf5488b9c5][i:cf5488b9c5]Quote:[/i:cf5488b9c5][/b:cf5488b9c5]

---

If I were to guess before this season, I would say that Willow's reassurances that she is gay are to remind her friends, that she is still Willow, but this is not some phase in her life. It is not going away.

---

[/quote:cf5488b9c5]

Funny you should say that. It draws yet another parellel between being gay and using magic on B:tVS. That word "phase" was exactly the terminology Spike used to try and get a rise out of Willow in "The Yoko Factor".

(Don't know what relevance that has to homophobia, but it just popped into my head.)

Indygo

[mscheckmate]

[quote:ad4d14868d][b:ad4d14868d][i:ad4d14868d]Quote:[/i:ad4d14868d][/b:ad4d14868d]

---

To me those folks who pretend to be your friends with the "some of my best friends are gay" type of approach to cover their mistakes or prejudices are the worst.

---

[/quote:ad4d14868d]

So true.

This reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago with another, supposedly gay-friendly, musician. We needed to find a pianist for a job, and I suggested calling our colleague Dave's husband.

She laughed derisively and responded, "Do you really think that's the role?"

I'm no fan of overt homophobes, but at least you know where you stand with them.

[Thanatopsis]

I gotta agree. Sometimes I just get tired of people pretending. Though what's worse is when I try to mock them with, "Oh, that's all right, some of the nicest people I know are straight." Or something simiar. They don't get the sarcasm. (I think I need a sign.) This was my actual reply when a colleague from work asked me if I minded having drinks with her, her boyfriend and his brother. She just smiled this huge smile and patted me condescendently on the shoulder and said, "Wow, that's so great. Good for you."

[Repost Moderator]

[b:f030887f49] Originally posted by WillowsMagical
[/b:f030887f49]

Hey everyone.

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this, and I apologize in advance.

I'm really wanting to get the word out about my Buffy the Vampire Slayer message board. I know it's rude for me to post here asking others to join my board, but I don't know of any other way to promote it. I know, I know, shameless self-promotion.

Here is the URL. Can you guys please check it out? And join if it seems interesting to you.

www.twincityscape.com./al...nboard.cgi

[friskylez]

i recently came out to some friends from HS, I didnt know who i was then, so i figure why should i think my friends knew about me Anyway, when i talked to them from my class reunion on Sunday, it wasnt mentioned...I dont think thats a bad thing necessarily, just a case of denial, if you dont bring it up, you dont have to talk about it..

One of my friends, the one i was in contact with the most recently, was actually very cool about it, she asked me about g/fs, what it was like, how i "found out" etc..We had quite a lengthy discussion on the topic and she said she had no idea that it was so difficult for us in the real world....People just dont think about it because they dont relate to it..

Anyway the moral of the story is that she understands a little better now and thats a good thing, the more people openly discuss it, the more they find that we are the same as everyone else except for who we love..And that shouldnt matter one bit..

Now regarding Rallys question, I have no problems telling people i dont know or who are just acquaintances that im a lesbian, cause if they dont like it, it doesnt matter to me...Im out to my brothers and just about everyone else, except my parents and id really like to just say "hey mom and dad Im a lesbian", BUT..

The difference is that i KNOW my parents and how they would react, its something they would never understand..If they were to understand it would take them a long time to absorb the information...The main reason they wouldnt understand is A. they think it is a choice which leads to B. they would think they brought me up wrong somehow and i dont ever want them to think that..

They are wonderful parents, just a bit naive..So the dilema my friends presented to me was, dont you think that if you came out to them, it would help them to understand more and they wouldnt think those things ? Im still wrestling with that question..

My dad sported a bumber sticker when i was in the Army "our daughter serves proudly", somehow i cant see him adding one that says " my daughter's a lesbian and damn proud of it"

[relativegirl]

Interesting question Autumn. As the Hellmouth is supposed to attract all sorts of evil, I guess I had always assumed that homophobia would flourish in Sunnydale, even though we didn't see a lot of it on the show. It's also interesting that apparently none of us can think of any examples in which non-humans were guilty of either homophobia or denial of W/T's sexuality -- everyone we've named so far is a human.

Luke and the Master had some sexual imagery, if not subtext, going on when Luke drinks from the Master's wrist in WttH/tH but it didn't illicit any comments from the other vampires. Ditto for VampWillow's sexuality in the Wish and Dogglegangland -- didn't seem to be problem for the other vamps & only the humans felt compelled to comment on it. Curious.

I'll add 2 more humans whose attitudes at least gave me pause if not outright offended me -- Joyce and Cousin Beth:

Cousin Beth to Tara: [i:18aee92bf4] You don't care the slightest bitty
bit about your family, do you? You dad's been worried sick
about you every day you've been gone. There's a house needs
taking care of, Donny and your dad having to do for themselves [b:18aee92bf4] while you're down here living God knows what kind of lifestyle. Is it true you've been doing magic?[/b:18aee92bf4][/i:18aee92bf4]

Dawn about Joyce's take on W/T: [i:18aee92bf4] She and Willow are both witches. They do spells and stuff which is so much cooler than slaying. I told mom one time I wish they'd teach me some of the things they do together, and she got really quiet and made me go upstairs. I guess her generation isn't cool with witchcraft.[/i:18aee92bf4]

I think W/T must have faced homophobia that we didn't see. Everyone in their dorms must have realized they were a couple. There are bound to be a few idiots in a dormful of people who will make loud obnoxious comments and even more people who will snigger quietly behind their back.

At my college the student health service was very aggressive about trying to get all the women to use birth control -- you couldn't go to the health center for a cold w/o having a doctor or nurse quiz you on whether you were on the pill or using condoms or diaphragms and if you said no they were extremely eager to explain why you needed to be. I think it created a disincentive for some lesbians to get the free medical care. Maybe W/T had to deal with stupid crap like that too -- with Willow nipping it in the bud by loudly announcing they were gay-type lovers.

The most personally distressing homophobia I've had to face came from my mother. I'd tell you all the witty and wise ways in which I dealt with it, but I didn't.

[La]

It's strange to be living at home now with my mom and dad knowing i'm gay because now my mom can't ignore it anymore. The other night she said something like, "Your father's best friend is gay, and it's fine for other people, but not for my daughter." She thinks it's a phase and that I just haven't found the right guy. But she hasn't been homophobic about it, just doesn't want me to be gay. My dad defends me though - he and my brother joke about it at the dinner table, it's kind of weird, but funny. My mom just sits there and wonders where she went wrong. She thinks that she did something wrong while she raised me that "caused" this. Like letting me play with trucks too much or something. Which is ridiculous, I was never even "tomboyish". I probably owned every Barbie ever made, and I still collect dolls, so her truck argument is stupid.

Anyway, any homophobia we saw in the buffyverse was played off for comedy (Joyce's comment, Buffy's comments to the social worker, etc). But I think that, should Tara and Willow have experienced anything else at the dorms, or wherever, that they would have taken strength in each other and not have been phased by it.

[Zahir al Daoud]

[b:7e12854f48][quote:7e12854f48]"As the Hellmouth is supposed to attract all sorts of evil, I guess I had always assumed that homophobia would flourish in Sunnydale, even though we didn't see a lot of it on the show."[/quote:7e12854f48][/b:7e12854f48]

Hm. You see, I thought the Hellmouth attracted supernatural evil. Ordinary human evil was something else. Of course in the Buffyverse, that is often a metaphor for human evils--which I suppose would make the whole MOO (Mothers Opposed to the Occult) thing the nearest thing to dealing with homophobia.

Tiny rant:

I hate the term "homophobia." It is too mild, too harmless-sounding. I have acrophobia. My fiancee has agoraphobia. The neighbor has homophobia. See what I mean?

"Phobia" is irrational fear. That's not something that deserves condemnation but education. What we so often see is not "Fear" but "Hate."

Okay, tiny rant over.

[Puff]

I guess the only slight homophobia reaction that has appeared in Buffy had nothing to do with Willow and Tara and was actually Xander and his reaction to Larry being gay.

[Tulipp]

This is a really interesting question. One of the things I always appreciated so much about BTVS in season 4, even when we were not seeing kissing, etc., was that once Willow got over her initial difficulty in talking to her friends about her sexuality and Tara (i.e. that scene where she comes back into her dorm room in the morning but in response to a prompt from Buffy does not say where she's been), she really accepted who she was.

For me, the scene in the Yoko Factor where Spike is watching Tara play with Willow's hair really crystallizes this. Here is a perfect example of a moment where someone is watching and making judgments, and W and T are oblivious.

Granted, Spike is not making a homophobic judgment here, just deciding how he can use this new information, but so often homophobic reactions are precisely that: judgment paired with action of some kind, and so Spike is in some way acting metaphorically homophobic here.

But W and T don't notice. They don't have to. They are secure.

EDITED TO ADD: I am NOTsuggesting that people who are secure don't experience or have to deal with homophobia. Eep. I wonder what I did mean exactly....

Those are my thoughts for now.

[walker(d)]

"Some of my Best Friends are Gay".

In my experience that sentence is usually followed by "But...insert your own unfounded homophobic assumption here".

I would guess that Willow and Tara must have faced some homophobia that we would not have seen on screen. I know that BtVS is not an "issue of the episode" kind of show but by body swerving certain issues you do stretch the believability of the show a little. Or maybe I'm just pessimistic and there are some gay kitties out there who have never faced any homophobia of any kind.

[karenk]

This might end up becoming a personal rant here, so I apologize ahead of time...

But I'm just SO sick and tired of reading about how MN has 2 mums and now we've been told that JW has a gay godfather... I have to say, so what????? What makes them think that that fact alone gives them any kind of understanding of what it is like?

I was 18 when I finally 'realised' why I've always felt 'different' from the rest of my peers in school (I wasn't in school by then, I was working). I was 18 when I finally realised that the words 'homosexual', 'gay', 'lesbian' were not bad.

All my life up to that point, I've never had anyone or anything telling me any differently. No homosexual references of any kind is allowed in the media in Singapore... none whatsoever. Not even a hint of any sort is allowed. In fact, up till a couple of years ago, those 3 words were not even allowed on air. They were completely censored.

Case in point, for anyone who follows Friends... in the premiere episode of Friends, the audience is supposed to find out that Ross had just been dumped by his wife who left him for another woman. Only in Singapore - that was all snipped. To my then untrained eye, nothing was amiss. Nowadays, the tv station is at least allowed to show that Carol and Susan are a couple and Ben does have 2 mummies.

But there's still a long way to go. Just a few months back, when I first came back to Singapore after spending the better part of 3 years in Melbourne, I was extremely excited that a cable channel here was going to start showing Buffy season 5, it meant that I had a chance to record eps first gen on PAL (I usually get pretty bad NTSC copies from contacts in US). Then Real Me was shown and remember the part where Willow and Tara were unpacking in Willow's room and Willow puts her arms around Tara to comfort her when Tara seemed a little insecure? That was all snipped. I haven't bothered to watch an ep since. But while I was channel surfing a couple of weeks back - Willow's 'Gay now!' line in Triangle was also snipped.

I have many more examples I can give, Ellen's entire coming out season was banned in Singapore when the tv station had already paid for the entire season. I know that for a fact cause I was working for the tv station by then and had seen the original tapes. I was working in the on-air promotions department of the station and often I had to edit trailers for several programmes.

I always did the trailers for Xena (not a hardship for me) but I always had to be sure that I edited from the transmission copy of the ep rather than the original cause snips often take place. My Xena friends here who rely solely on eps shown by the tv station are always amazed when I point out that some part of the ep they had just seen was snipped. I guess the 'subtext' wasn't quite 'subtext' enough for the Singapore censors.

I don't have a gay godfather and I don't have 2 mummies. In fact, my this one mummy will probably disown me if I ever came out to her, so I am always terrified of my family finding out (well, except for my brother, but then he's gay, so we both have our secrets to keep). I was 22 when I finally met my first 'out' lesbian and it was all thanks to Xena. And the Xena online community (but more lately the Kitten Board), really became my lifeline this past few years and for that, much as I detested the series finale, I will always owe Rob Tapert a debt of thanks. I don't owe JW or ME anything. I owe Amber Benson and Alyson Hannigan for their portrayals and their support and they will forever be actors that I will follow.

I know what I WANT, Mr Whedon, I want what Tara and Willow had before you decided to screw up their relationship. I don't NEED yet another dead lesbian role model.

Sorry for the longer than expected rant but my fingers wouldn't stop typing.

karenk

[Mrs Vertigo]

They censored Xena? Thats completely ridicules. I started watching that show when I was in fifth grade and I only became aware of the whole subtext thing this year, when I finally got my ass around to look up Xena sites online. That show is so big with clichs anyway (no offence intended to fans or to the show whatsoever), I always thought Xena and Gabrielles declarations of mutual love every second ep were, you know, of the strictly platonic kind, and I bet all my unsuspecting straight friends thought and still think the same. That subtext is so invisible to the audience it supposedly offends, so why ruin it for those who enjoy it?

And on a more personal, and maybe more bitter note:
An incident of homophobia Ive dealt with well, lets see. Oh, yeah, there was this girl who was my [b:e6ec598eef] best friend[/b:e6ec598eef] for over a year, who knew I was completely in love with her throughout all our friendship, who told me she was cool with it, that she didnt care and oh yeah, one day I walk out of the shower to hear my mom on the phone with somebody, explaining loudly and in great detail that homosexuality is NOT a disease. Guessing who my mom was lecturing? Thats right, my supposedly best friend, who just happened to think I was a mental case but didnt bother to tell me.

Of course I was still so spinelessly in love with that girl that I forgave her. Were still friends, I dont know how or why, and she still thinks that about gays. I dont know if Im still in love with her though; some of the magic has strangely disappeared.

[Dumbsaint]

LoL Yeah, I'm sadly familiar with that line, and the crazy troll logic that all too often accompanies it.

Recently online I was doing my AOHell thing, surfing the Buffy RP chatrooms, and happened upon an acquaintance gay-baiting some other, lesser-skilled roleplayers. I called her on her use of homophobic speech, reminding her that what she says affects people, and that she was being hurtful in a socially irresponsible kinda way. She was quick to reply with, "But I'm not homophobic! My best friend's aunt is gay."

Yeah, you're not homophobic, but you have no problem insinuating that "lesbos" are something to be grossed out by or busting out with "fag" when reaching for the first fightin' words that come to mind. Oookay.

Lack of sensitivity. It's the new pink. In the Buffyverse, at least.

[AutumnT]

Yeah I think the part that irritates me the most is the insinuation that merely by knowing a gay person the fact that you are oh so generously still allowing them to be part of your life that you could not possibly be an asshole. Wrong. Apparently you can be raised by two women and still question whether a 2 and 1/2 year relationship is "experimenting". And as a side benefit this sort of thing just makes me hate Anne Heche more.

On the Buffy front I was always surprised the girls did not even get any sideways glances when dancing at the Bronze. Especially given the goofy way they sometimes danced.

[kukalaka]

I watched 1 or 2 episodes of Xena years ago (not having any idea I might be gay) and picked up on the subtext rigt away. And it wasn't some very obvious scene, no "I love you"s, just the general feeling.

So maybe it's not that invisible. Or maybe I'm just that good

[Tulipp]

Yes, Kukalaka, on Xena it was totally there. And, at least in seasons 3 and 4, completely deliberate on the part of the writers.

I'd go on and on, but it would probably be WAY off topic.

[AutumnT]

So I'm flipping through a [i:c749f875cb] Movieline[/i:c749f875cb] magazine and right in the middle of all the pictures of the [i:c749f875cb] Young Hollywood Awards[/i:c749f875cb] I suddenly go "Oh look, there's Joel". Yup in all his Joelness smoothing up to some actress named Sasha Alexander. That little two-timer.

[BoredNow99]

Ah, Joel, how I've missed mention of him.

I know a few people have mentioned The Yoko Factor already, but there was one thing that always stuck out about that episode for me.

Well, okay, two, but, y'know, I figured the flippy-hair-Tara-tug was a given

Spike obviously picks up on stuff that the Scoobies will react to, like Willow and Tara's relationship or Giles worrying he's not needed.

And yeah, at first it seems like he's just playing on their own irrational fears.

But even after they realise it was Spike who caused all the trouble, things are still just as strained as before.

And Willow saying Tara didn't feel welcome at the meeting was really telling.

I always took that to mean what Spike had done had only brought to a head what was [b:f60a922065] actually[/b:f60a922065] happening, not what they [b:f60a922065] feared[/b:f60a922065] was happening.

In which case, Buffy would have been treating Willow differently for a period of time.

Oh look I rambled. It's late, okay

[Garner]

I actually mentioned this to another fanfic writer at one point. That W/T had never faced a real homophobic attack or comment, and that that seemed fairly unrealistic to me. It's something that any gay person has to face at some point, and I thought that it would have been nice to show that prejudice does exist and that it has to be dealt with, endured and overcome. But then I suppose with Joss' "no issues," comment or the gay thing being "passe" for him that he never wanted to explore that. I have thought about including such a scene in a fic, but frankly don't know if I can do it well enough not to piss the snot out of everyone. Maybe I still will. I think it should be background and tertiary to what is going on, but ...

As for encountering homopobia in RL, as male I hear it all the time. Many guys will refer to something or some situation that they dislike as "gay." As in "That is so gay!" That happens a lot. I hear it from kids maybe 14-15 and from adults 33-40 and probably everything in between. Those examples are just fresh from last weekend. It seems to me that this is the sort of cultural background homophobia that is ingrained in society. Gay = Bad. It's taken for granted and assumed by many. I do speak up, but I know of no way that this is likely to change in the near future, which is very sad.

Garner

[Epicurus]

I loved the fact that Willow and Tara had never faced a outright homophobic confrontation because I wanted this fictional place to exist in real life.I guess I could overlook the unrealistic parts beacuse I just saw Sunnydale as a place when he didn't matter.

Or maybe it's just that I tricked myself into believing that it didn't matter because if I wanted realism I could turn on the news or watch any other show on TV that is gay friendly and watch them beat up on their gay characters..

[Kalita]

Didn't Marti mention that one of her moms asked if they'd be bringing Tara back?

If they really wanted 'the gay perspective' on this, gosh, maybe Marti could have actually consulted one of her moms BEFOREHAND. I knew if I was her mom, I'd slap her silly before letting her write such a stupid, worthless storyline.

But I guess being raised by them was enough to understand things. Whatever.

[Slick Whiskas]

BoredNow99: Not only that, but, in the episode after the Yoko Factor (I can't recall the name), when Willow goes over to Giles's with Tara to get her laptop, Giles keeps giving Tara really strange looks. After the comments by Willow's friends, and the awkward treatment, I don't blame Tara for not wanting to go to that meeting...

Garner: I've got a 10 yr old neighbor (my little brother's friend) who constantly uses the "that's gay" phrase. Worse, though, he was telling me about a girl down the street (9 years old, I think), and how annoying and stupid she was. When I asked him what she'd done to make him say stuff like that, he told me "I dunno, she's just such a fag". Another thing I've noticed about this particular boy, though, is that he sometimes gives off a vibe, he occasionally uses mannerisms that are considered typically gay, and has attempted to kiss my brother (as some sort of method of attack in their play... tackle... tickle-torture... kiss?). It makes me wonder if there is truth behind the whole "you know what homophobia really means" thing.
Opinions, anyone?

-Civet ( *

[Lindy]

Well, I think if a ten year old is throwing such phrases around he probably picked them up somewhere (parents? school?). I don't think it's necessarily connected to his sexual orientation in this case.. he seems to be a little too young to subconciously hide his fear of his own sexuality behind such phrases.

[Slick Whiskas]

Good point, Lindy. What I was thinking (but I guess not clearly communicating) when I wrote that was that maybe the kid had been harrassed for his behaivor by others, and then turned around and used it himself. Maybe I'm just over-analyzing. Either way, it upsets me that, as you said, children of that age (and probably younger) are exposed to those sort of derogatory statements, and are growing up in the mind-set that "gay is bad".

-Civet ( *

[skittles]

While teaching computers this past year, the students got frustrated with the computers, the new network security, and the programs they were using.

They would comment, "This computer is so gay!"

My response, "I don't think the computer has a sexual preference."