Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

[tommo]

He not only sucks shit; he encourages other people to write it as well.

[Taz]

I didn't see the finales, I in fact haven't watched since Tara was initially shot. I really had no intention of watching and now that I know that Super hetero Xander flies in and saves the poor evil lesbian chick from herself, I know for certain I won't. Thank You ME for showing how much you care, in a phrase-Fuck Off!!

[GridMonkey]

Dude. That was lame. Even my friend Dave who watches the show because there are "hot chicks" thought it was totally lame. And he like the Phantom Menace.
Lame, lame, lame.
No more Buffy for me thank you.

[lauriebear]

BBovenGuy,

I was the one that brought the hole Jesus/Xander angle because I believe that's what they were trying to convey. Xander could have said anything at that point, Construction worker, butt monkey, etc.

But he didn't. It struck me odd at the time, and being that I am Minister of Music at a methodist church, my mind went straight to the Christian thing. I mean he's standing in front of a Satanic Temple, he has no magical power, and he talks Willow down with love. I think it was intentional.

They problem I have with it, is twofold.
1) Homosexuality vs Christian Church- self explanatory, not all christians, but sadly many.

2) That they absolutely trashed the Wiccan religion, in these last few eps. Granted I don't know that much about the religion but I highly doubt anything that Willow did in this final has anything to do with the religion, in fact probably just the opposite. Call her something else, a witch, a pissed off Bitch anything but Wicca Willow, she is not.

So I'm not Christian bashing, just observing but... ME, however, obviously is not against Wicca bashing.

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Well it's not like Xander started pawing Willow there and then. He basically appealed to Willow on the grounds that he loved her a friend and didn't want her to go through the grief alone. Furthermore he respected that she was going through something he couldn't understand.

I honestly don't think Buffy could have been more eloquent which is saying something since this was B-movie, Sailor Moon Finale stuff.

Personally I'd have thrown my TV set out the window and for years I was a Xander/Willow shipper. I'm still not sure they could come together (even forgetting the relentless reminders of 'gay now') with the fact basically being it'd be on the grave of her best friend as well as lover.

I didn't like Willow saying "Giles you can go join her!" though at the appeal to Tara

Sometimes I wonder if bringing back evil willow wasn't solely the idea of UPN wanting to see more of 'bad willow in leather'. Bad girls have an appeal I suppose but I hope that wasn't the case. There's nothing sexy about the horror show displayed tonight of grief and anger and pain.

P.S.

The more I think on the episode the more my positive spin on it turns to mush. I'm a Non-denominational Christian Minister (my Church in the Presbyterian won't approve of my ministry of absolute life or homosexual acceptance add infintum)

But the Wicca bashing and Lesbian angle does sour what could have been a very positive portrayal of Xander offering the healing power of unconditional love that I obviously hope to abide by.

[librarygirl(d)]

[Anita Iowa]

Bob (and whoever else),

I'm genuinely sorry if I inadvertantly made anyone feel uncomfortable regarding their personal religious beliefs. That was certainly not my intention. I have my problems with Christianity (as I do with ALL religions and belief systems), but there are things I like about it, as well - in fact, I was once a very devout Christian, attended Catholic school for 8 years, and even stayed at a Catholic worker house for a while, giving me a keen interest in when and how Christian symbols and myths are utilized in art and the media.

In criticizing Buffy, I was not trying to make a blanket criticism of all Christians. What I was condemning was the particular brand of Christianity this episode evoked for me - the right-wing, fundamentalist, anti-gay/anti-pagan, patriarchal, judgemental faction. Trust me when I say that most Christians I've been close to have been actually MORE pro-gay and left wing than even the general populace. The whole storyline, with it's mysogynistic and homophobic undercurrents (IMO), unfortunately did not lend itself (again IMO) to a left-leaning Christian interpretation of these events. If Xander had done what most of my Christian freinds would have done in this situation - that is, start singing "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," or waving a sign saying "Vengence is not healthy for Wiccas and other living things," I would have had much less of a problem.

It's not that I think all Christians are Fallwellians (protesting at the Pentagon with the radical Catholics gave me a pretty good idea of how much the right-wingers hate their lefty brethren), but that in this specific storyline, it came off as more of a 'good Christian man converts evil wayward queer heathen,' as opposed to the 'come on people now, smile on your brother/give peace a chance' version of the faith.

Also, I honestly think I'd have had less trouble if Xander was "saving" anyone other than a gay, Jewish Wicca. If he'd have simply been talking to say, Buffy or Dawn, I'd have just passed it off as using bits of Christian myth in the same way others have been used before, and leave it at that. It was the very specific plot and character circumstances surrounding this that squicked me out.

Edited to say:The "Buffy" thing is so passe. We (me and several million other viewers this season, that is) are SO over that.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, didn't watch the finale. But the season finale of 24 was pretty good, if depressing.

[urnofosiris]

Tara will not be back. I am sick of this show, sick of discussing it. Whedon stabbed us in the back and dares name it equal treatment. He wil never admit or see what he has done. He rather strut around believing himself to be a righteous man who tells a great story and gives us what we need. He knows how we feel better than we do apparently. Oh and he loves Amber. Yes well that makes it all ok.

I am done with this.

[Wiccagrrl313]

DrG, is that based on recent comments? I understand he's at the Bronze.

[kpmuse]

Well, there it is. Joss said Tara's story is ended. Confirmation finally.

Willow's story is about weakness, addiction and loss! That's what she is to him? He doesn't deserve Willow and Tara.

The rest of his comments clearly have no understanding, sensitivity or any feeling for what he just did. Too bad people without any sense can have so much power.

I will watch to see his beliefs play out for his own life that when you finally feel you are standing on your feet, happy, and feeling safe, that's when the bottom falls out.

We shall see what the universe has for him.

Done now.

[xita]

Joss replying to some tara lovers:
[quote:e739db892e][b:e739db892e][i:e739db892e]Quote:[/i:e739db892e][/b:e739db892e]

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over the gay thing, revisited
Posted by: Joss - May 22, 2002, 2:27 AM
Thought I was out, but.... had one more thing to add. I killed Tara. Some of you may have been hurt by that. It very unlikely it was more painful to you than it was to me. I couldn't even discuss it in story meetings without getting upset, physically. Which is why I knew it was the right thing to do. Because stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we WANT. And I knew some people would be angry with me for destroying the only gay couple on the show, but the idea that I COULDN'T kill Tara because she was gay is as offensive to me as the idea that I DID kill her because she was gay. Willow's story was not about being gay. It was about weakness, addiction, loss... the way life hits you in the gut right when you think you're back on your feet. The course of true love never did run smooth, not on my show. (only Dennis Franz has suffered more than my characters.) I love Amber and she knows it. Eventually, this story will end for all of them. Hers ended sooner.

Or did it......?

Yeah, it did.

---

[/quote:e739db892e]

[TheHighWillowhuggerofOz]

Well bleah.

One might as well say why he feels the need to tap drug abuse, all these unpleasant parrallels, and the fact some of his staff lied.

bleah

[Wiccagrrl313]

Absolutely clueless. Sigh.

[urnofosiris]

I wonder if he really believes that himself. Unlikely it is more upsetting to us than to him? I cannot even begin to form a reply to that.

Well he did use the word "destroy". Did you hear yourself mister?
Why am I even surprised at the level of arrogance and ignorance he is displaying. Why do I even care?

[Taz]

thanks, for the article Xita.

Well, fuck you too, Joss. I doubt if Joss' pain can ever be equal to mine he'll never be a gay or a lesbian in a straight world. I know its not all about sexuality but, after reading that and seeing the direction the show has taken its all I can think of. Joss and ME have wounded me, thunk I'll stick with Smallville and reading.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, and see... it's all our fault, of course. Because we dared to believe that Joss wouldn't, shouldn't, and couldn't kill Tara. The Mantra killed her, not Joss. Asshole.

[MOUSE]

I think depression must be a drug for Joss. He must really get off on it.
You do something BECAUSE it makes you sick. If it makes you sick, it must be brilliant????
Man I never want to get inside that guys head. Wayyy too dark for me.
Huh! At one time I actually thought he was a genius.
He proved me wrong there.

[urnofosiris]

well I guess he proved the line between a genius and a mad man *is* a thin one, and he crossed it with a giant leap.

[The Partisan]

Some putz wrote the following

[quote:2f4de44ef1][b:2f4de44ef1][i:2f4de44ef1]Quote:[/i:2f4de44ef1][/b:2f4de44ef1]

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Eventually, this story will end for all of them. Hers ended sooner.

---

[/quote:2f4de44ef1]

I'm counting the days until we can apply those words of wisdom to Firefly.

[xita]

More Joss

[quote:ff6d0daafd][b:ff6d0daafd][i:ff6d0daafd]Quote:[/i:ff6d0daafd][/b:ff6d0daafd]

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So I'm REALLY REALLY going to bed. Two things: I actually wasn't aware of the dead/evil lesbian cliche. I wasn't aware of the 'add a young girl in the fifth season' cliche either. I think I don't get out much.

And Thoin, I'd like to call them Mr Wynn and Mr Kidd, respectively. Sleep now.

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[/quote:ff6d0daafd]

[tommo]

She's gone forever.

And he's never heard of the Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche. Well hopefully, now that he's clearly read Amy's essay on the subject, he'll have pause for thought.

Can that make it better? Can that turn things around?

No. It can't.

I'm done with this show; I'm done with Joss and I'm pretty much done with looking for the silver lining anymore.

[Coma123]

Comment
xita
Ms. Moderator
Fantastico
(5/22/02 12:41:24 am)
Reply

Re: Discussion ? S6E21&22 ? ?Two to Go&Grave"

More Joss

Quote:


So I'm REALLY REALLY going to bed. Two things: I actually wasn't aware of the dead/evil
lesbian cliche. I wasn't aware of the 'add a young girl in the fifth season' cliche either. I
think I don't get out much.



And let me be the first to say BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dave V]

Joss:[quote:368089a0ad][b:368089a0ad][i:368089a0ad]Quote:[/i:368089a0ad][/b:368089a0ad]

---

I actually wasn't aware of the dead/evil lesbian cliche.

---

[/quote:368089a0ad]
So whatever Doug Petrie said to Sci-Fi Universe was a hallucination? This guy studied feminist film theory?

I call bullsh**!

[tommo]

Apparently he didn't study it hard enough.

[urnofosiris]

I think he might have been too busy pleasuring himself during the class that dealt with feminism and/or lesbians to pay attention to what was being said.
Oh oops, that was classless of me. Well I am obviously not as smart as the man who apparently has no clue what goes on in the world outside his ego, and yet he does know what we need and how we feel. Impressive yet odd.

[Wiccagrrl313]

Well, and gotta love the irony that he basically did it cause he wanted to show he *could*... Hasn't "Just cause you can do something doesn't mean you *should*" been pretty much the theme of this season? Oh, that and... Oh Grow Up! Which pretty much sums it up. No wonder this season felt so wrong... they were trying to teach life lessons they'd never learned themselves.

[kpmuse]

Yes, according to Joss, we need to see the lesbian get killed on his show. Cause, what, we never see lesbians get killed in life do we?

He actually said that he doubted that we felt Tara's death more than he did, cause what! He couldn't even discuss it in his ---- wait a minute ---- storyroom! PLEASE!

This is real life to many of us Joss Whedon!

Oh, I am so sorry for saying this! I am seething right now!

My only hope for him now, is that he learns from this experience. Now I see where Steve and David get their stories from.

[urnofosiris]

[quote:be31f79f12][b:be31f79f12][i:be31f79f12]Quote:[/i:be31f79f12][/b:be31f79f12]

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Now I see where Steve and David get their stories from.

---

[/quote:be31f79f12]

And their attitude.

[tommo]

Yes, he got physically ill whenever the subject came up. And yet, he's not sure if we were able to feel it as greatly as he did.

Try being me for a day Joss, then perhaps you'll feel something. Because I think you need to. [b:25d18c6803] Feel[/b:25d18c6803] it.

Odd, isn't it, how Dark Magic Willow's lines come so easily.