Skip to content


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

DO NOT POST - BACKUP IN PROGRESS

Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby VampNo12 » Tue May 21, 2002 10:07 pm

I am so disgusted with Joss and his comments! Let's see it pained him so to kill Tara, and therefore, it means it's a great plot device that must occur. This man is so full of himself, it makes me sick :puke ! He really gets off playing dumb, when in fact all he has done all this time is happily manipulate/lie to us.

This man has such a huge ego, and now I know clearly why Xander saves the day (ie Xander represents Joss and has to receive all the attention).

He loves Amber so much then why has he clearly over and over again disrespected her with the credits. To me all this time that Willow's story wasn't about finding true-love, but rather "pain, addiction, and loss" disgusts me! Tara a mere plot device, which when she serves her purpose is cruelly taken out in a body-bag.

He gives us "what we need" and, "not what we want" is a cop-out. Take all the acclaim for portraying a positive gay couple, then don't come back and play dumb about the cliche. No what he did was give the homophobes/Tara haters what they wanted, and us ("Amber is the heart of the show") shooting Tara literally in the heart. I truly hate this man, and I feel so ashamed for placing any faith in him in the past.
VampNo12
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby tommo » Tue May 21, 2002 10:11 pm

I'm just reeling from amazement at this man's audacity. He might have [b:715589923b] said[/b:715589923b] that he felt bad about killing Tara, but his product showed none of that whatsoever.
tommo
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby xita » Tue May 21, 2002 10:11 pm

the show portrayed them getting rid of the trash.
xita
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Anita Iowa » Tue May 21, 2002 10:12 pm

Thought I was out, but.... had one more thing to add. You killed Tara, and Willow -and hence, gutted the show. Some of us may have been hurt by that, but it is very unlikely it was more painful to us than it was to your swollen purse, what with ratings slipping all throughout sweeps.

I couldn't even watch your show anymore without getting upset, physically. Which is why I knew it was the right thing to do, when I vowed sooner to slit my wrists than to ever subject myself to any of the steaming piles of shit you like to pathetically pass off as great drama.

Because Mutant Enemy's stories, as I have so often said, are not about what we as lesbians WANT, it's about what we as lesbians need - and what ME thinks lesbians need is apparently a long, hard...well anyway.

And I knew some people would be angry with Joss for destroying the only gay couple on the show - not to mention destroying such unnecessary elements as good dialogue, likable characters, and plausible plots -but the idea that Joss HAD TO produce a quality show in order to get people to watch was as offensive to him as the idea that he's not entitled, as a Hollywood golden boy, to have everyone automatically kiss his ass and fawn over him, no matter what hideous hackwork he rotely churns out.

Joss's story was not about being a great storyteller or socially responsible artist. It was about weakness, addiction, loss... his weakness in surrounding himself with brownnosing yes men who automatically green light his every ill-begotten vanity project; his addiction to having his enormous ego fed no matter what the artistic cost (and, judging by this season, his apparent addiction to injecting 100% pure black tar heroin directly into his brainstem before coming up with the story arcs - for what else can explain their sluggish incoherence?); and loss, in the way his hubris has led to the loss this season of millions of casual viewers, untold numbers of hardcore fans, and the great bulk of his critical acclaim...

...the way the show hits you in the gut right when you stand on your feet after watching it, and realize with horror, through your nausea, that not only have you given praise and money to this overwrought wolf-in-sheeps clothing, but also that, as far as the show goes, watching a test pattern would have been just as dramatic and fulfilling. The course of being a pampered millionaire with failed pretensions to 'great art' never did run smooth, not on any of the days he's too busy laughing all the way to the bank at the expense of his gay viewers to remember even the most rudimentary lessons from his rumored Feminism 101 class. (the only people who've suffered more than his feminist viewers are those few fans who can see through his now threadbare Emperor's New Clothes .)

I hate Joss Whedon and now hopefully he knows it. Eventually, this story will end for him, just like it ended for other Hollywood golden boy auteurs turned loathsome hacks, such as Chris Carter, or Rob Tapert. Hopefully, his will end sooner.

Or will it......?

Yeah, it will.
Anita Iowa
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Wiccagrrl313 » Tue May 21, 2002 10:15 pm

Well, contrary to what Joss might think, he hasn't given me (or a lot of other people here, I dare say) either what I want *or* need. And trust the tale, not the teller? Well, frankly, both suck right now. But then, Marti hopes those of us hating things right now will hang in there, so of course I should continue to subject myself to this, right? Or, ya know... not so much.
Wiccagrrl313
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby kpmuse » Tue May 21, 2002 10:19 pm

Oh wait we forgot.

Joss Whedon is so passe. It's been done.
kpmuse
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Dave V » Tue May 21, 2002 10:21 pm

It's all about appearances, yes? If I punch you in the face and tell you it hurt me more than it hurt you, what does it make me? See the subject of this post for a clue.

And it's not just about Tara. He killed Willow. The guy gets off on hurting the character. Over and over. And over.

I'm glad Aly didn't appear on tv and defend this load of crap.

I would like to ask Amber if she does in fact feel loved by Joss. Wanting to stay on the show. Never in the credits (except that last sad time), never getting the comensurate PAY and perqs. She will in all likelihood have too much class and professionalism to say anything against the man, but still...


Edited to add:
How's Firefly, Joss? Hear you blew $10 mil and then had to re-write the pilot. Hack writing, much? Sleep well, asshole.
Dave V
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby urnofosiris » Tue May 21, 2002 10:22 pm

Hee hee Kristine, thanks for the smile, my first today.
urnofosiris
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Chino6069 » Tue May 21, 2002 10:23 pm

Well one word comes to mind when I think of JW...
it's not Prat, pillock or wazzock (tho they are all excellent choices!)... it's KARMA.

What goes around comes around, and he will get his - sooner.
Chino6069
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Wiccagrrl313 » Tue May 21, 2002 10:24 pm

Or will he...?

Yes. He will.
Wiccagrrl313
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby tommo » Tue May 21, 2002 10:26 pm

Thanks Wiccagrrl. I needed that. God, I hope so.
tommo
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby UnrealisticExpectations » Tue May 21, 2002 10:35 pm

Is this really happening?

This just feels so surreal. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how we ended up here. I just never thought any of this would happen. It is so strange a year ago we would have never dreamed of saying these things about Joss&Co. Obviously that's because a year ago we had no idea he was a lying sack of shit. It's amazing how things change so quickly.
UnrealisticExpectations
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Dave V » Tue May 21, 2002 10:47 pm

UnrealisticExpectations:
[quote:547ab627b1][b:547ab627b1][i:547ab627b1]Quote:[/i:547ab627b1][/b:547ab627b1]
It's amazing how things change so quickly.
[/quote:547ab627b1]
Yeah, last year I thought this was the best tv show ever. And, you know, it was.

Things change. Buffy sucks ass. Viewers leave. Ratings in the 2's. Tra la la...
Dave V
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby tyche » Tue May 21, 2002 11:22 pm

www.slayage.com/news/020521-chicago.html
Praise for Aly, but not for much else.
tyche
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Cordy » Wed May 22, 2002 1:45 am

I don't understand why Giles gets to live. I mean, he was on the floor and he seems dead to me, really dead, but then he wakes up and tell Anya it's because of Willow hasn't finished the world... can you say lame?

Has anyone an explanation for that? Because I really want to know why ME can bring whoever they want back except Tara :puke

And Andrew/Jonathan going away? Please!! They wanted to rape Katrina, hurt Buffy and make themselves the masters of the universe!! Are we suppose to forget that just because Willow try to kill them? They are the bad guys, they have to pay! Or maybe be trapped with a gay truck driver is punishment enough ...

I wish Willow had finished the world
Cordy
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby snuggle79 » Wed May 22, 2002 2:37 am

I don't understand anything anymore. Really. Call me stupid or whatever. But i really don't get it. HOW on earth could Buffy and Giles just have a stupid laugh about all the "oh so funny" things that happened when he was away...ah yes what was the other thing that happened a day before? Yeah, right...Tara's death...sooo funny.Well..who cares...? It wasn't Joyce, it was only Tara, so 24 hours later we can again laugh about funny things happened in our lives...
It was really disgusting to see and hear that... :puke
Can't believe what they did to this show...
snuggle79
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby StephenDeKnightIsAPrick » Wed May 22, 2002 3:00 am

Well, I enjoyed the final.


The smallville final, that is. Didn't watch Buffy, won't be watching it ever again. Seeing Red was the last episode, wasn't it? It ended with Willow and Tara kissing. Don't know what strange program y'all are getting.

Big hugs and lesbian type kisses to anyone who was tortured with this dreck.
StephenDeKnightIsAPrick
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Grimaldi » Wed May 22, 2002 3:15 am

didn't really watch both episodes, was watching sportscenter then 24, but what i saw was craptacular. The only things i liked were Clem, when Giles returned, Anya, and Aly's performance.
didn't really think DMWillow was evil or scary more like a mega bitch. The fight between her and Buffy was okay, but if Willow was so powerful why not freeze Buffy or turn her into a rat? Still not understanding how Buffy and Giles could take the time to have their talk instead of helping Willow. Didn't see all of Spikes trial or what ever it was called, but i don't care about Spike anymore anyway.
The thing i hated most about the finale was Xander. He all of the sudden cares about Willow? He didn't care earlier in the season when Willow first started having her problems. His little speech to Willow was nauseating, Dawn and Giles try to get Willow to think about Tara to get her to stop, but monkey boy says he loves Willow and all of the sudden she stops. His whole attitude was anoying and pathetic, can't believe he ended up the hero.
Grimaldi
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby virginia(d) » Wed May 22, 2002 3:45 am

We had the spoilers for the finale and I think most people believed that there had to be something more, a surprise twist, and there wasn't. I don't know why UPN decided to show the two episodes consecutively because it just felt that a lot of Grave was a rehash of Two to Go. Even my stepmum who's only watched three full episodes of Buffy in her life predicted that "Love" would save the day and that Spike would get his soul back. Where were the shocks?

Anya - I've always liked Anya, but even some of her comedy lines weren't up to scratch. I thought it was sweet that she wanted a hug from Giles. EC acted well and I thought stood out as one of the better characters in the finale.

Buffy - She hasn't been pissing me off this season as much as the rest of you, but this episode? Despite being the Slayer she did bugger all. She chased after a big flamey ball that went poof and didn't even hit anyone, the scenes with Dawn were extra-annoying, because all they seemed to do was bicker while the end of the world was nigh. The comment about "Oh you're never going back to Spike's blah blah" and Dawn's reply about "Yeah but previously you were going to foist me off on your potential rapist" made me want to bang Fluffy's head against a wall. Even the big ending where she's crying about how she wants to stay in the world, left me completely unmoved. "I want to show you all the good in the world," and then the camera pans over some nice looking trees in full blossom, argh! Yeah Buffy's completely restored to her former glory and all they can do is give her some drivel to spout.

Dawn - What the bloody hell did they do to her? I felt sure she'd be one of the characters who'd be good in these episodes but she was so bloody annoying. No offence to MT who I think is a splendid actor, but God could she get more whiney? Me, me, me, me, me. The world doesn't freaking revolve around you Dawny. It did season 5 but not anymore. BTW is Clem still waiting in Rack's place wondering where the crap Dawn has gone? The scenes with her sister were super-annoying. I have to say I did take some sadistic pleasure when DMW was baiting her. I really thought she was a cool character in Seeing Red but the finale just wasn't good enough for her character.

Giles - When he first showed up I thought "Yes, now we're getting somewhere" and 20 minutes after that, I was thinking "Why aren't you dead yet? DMW's crushed all your internal organs." Spouting all his mumbo jumbo then lying on the floor telling Anya that his time was at an end. I mean did anyone really believe his character was going to get killed off? It was so obvious he'd survive the carnage and even the fact that his good magic combined with Uber-Xander saved naughty Willow from her pranks, I wished he stayed back in dear old Blighty for the finale.

Spike - Spike with no top on, now there's a surprise. His duel with flaming hands and whatever else he did (God can't even remember, it was so enthralling) was short, which was its one saving grace. Again you could've pretty much guessed where it has heading. JM is such a great actor and once again given bad dialogue by the writers and repetition of old formulas (vamp getting a soul, now where have I heard that before?)

Willow - My poor Willow, what have they done to you? I never thought I'd say this but I was bored watching many of AH's scenes. This saddened me greatly because Willow has always been my favourite character and I love her so much, but this was awful. AH is one of the best actors I know and I hated myself for thinking attack Buffy, attack Giles, attack the world, attack Xander, yada yada, when can we move to a scene Willow isn't in attacking something. The highlight was seeing AH doing her own stunts when fighting Fluffy. The only time I was moved, was near the end where Uber-Xander spouts the love and she breaks down. Seeing Willow cry at anytime always makes me sad. Her story arc was so ill-conceived, the dialogue B-moviesh "You came from the earth, now the earth wants you back!" Tara's death and all the inconsistencies of this season have been for nothing because they didn't result in a story that was of meaning to me. It didn't ring true. What on earth are they going to do to f*** her up next season? Alyson, I'm truly sorry they have done this to you.

Uber-Xander - First three-quarters, spent whining, last 15 minutes saved the world. Shall we change the name to XtVS now? Can't blame NB for his character being annoying because that's the way his character's been written. I can't blame any of the cast, they tried doing the best they could but even they couldn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Why did I watch it? It was boring and I could have been playing Cranium instead.
virginia(d)
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Sela » Wed May 22, 2002 4:33 am

Great post, Virginia! I couldn't have said it better myself! Oh, and thanks for giving me a good a proper laugh. Though, I'm trying to be quiet since I'm at work, and it happens to be a rather small office, so I'm holding it in as much as possible. My eyes are all teary. Really, everything you said was right on the money! Buffy blech blech blech!!!

--Sela
Sela
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby ninjitsugrrl » Wed May 22, 2002 4:38 am

Well, Virginia, I was going to post something detailed about my feelings on the finale... but I think you pretty much covered it all for me. It sucked, it sucked some more, and then it just kept sucking.
ninjitsugrrl
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby dartegan(d) » Wed May 22, 2002 4:51 am

Hey Kittens - Does anyone know the name of the song that was playing at the end of Grave? It sounded like Sara McLaughlin but I couldn't place the song.

thanks
dartegan(d)
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby snuggle79 » Wed May 22, 2002 5:02 am

Yes, the song is from Sarah McLachlan and it's called "Prayer of Saint Francis".
snuggle79
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby raccoon » Wed May 22, 2002 5:07 am

It's "The Prayer of St. Francis" by Sara McLachlan.

[quote:6810cfe776][b:6810cfe776][i:6810cfe776]Quote:[/i:6810cfe776][/b:6810cfe776]
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love;

where there is injury -- pardon;

where there is doubt -- faith;

where there is despair -- hope

where there is darkness -- light;

where there is sadness -- joy!


Grant that I may not so much seek

to be consoled as to console;

to be understood as to understand;

to be loved as to love.


For it is in giving that we receive;

it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;

and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
[/quote:6810cfe776]


I've just about had it with the muddled symbolism of this season. I. Just. Don't. Get. This. Show. Anymore.
raccoon
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby themagicpixie » Wed May 22, 2002 5:13 am

No-one gets this show. Read the reviews. Look at the ratings. No-one WANTS to get this show.

You really can't expect Joss to say he has made a mistake. Perhaps in 20 years he will do an interview where he concedes he did the wrong thing. But right now he cannot criticise a show he is being paid to make for at least the next year - the press would have a field day with a creator saying his own show has lost its way. The thing is, most people know that it has. Buffy/Spike was portrayed all wrong, Willow turned into a magic "addict" - if they wanted to talk about drugs, why not just make her a drug addict? Oh wait this is Buffy, so she had to be hooked on spells.

It's all bad and nasty and wrong but don't expect anyone who wants to keep their job to say so. Quite pathetic, but they have bills to pay, ya know?
themagicpixie
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby tyche » Wed May 22, 2002 5:30 am

I like this one... Joss or Mart: who's to blame?
www.televisionwithoutpity.com/show.cgi?show=12
tyche
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby Puff » Wed May 22, 2002 5:49 am

What can I say about this?..Aly was truly wonderful.
Puff
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby aeonflux6969 » Wed May 22, 2002 6:07 am

does anyone know when the ratings for this crap will be known..thanks
aeonflux6969
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby WilTaraFan » Wed May 22, 2002 6:18 am

I agree with just about everyone else as far as thoughts on the finale. It was horrible. Worse than horrible. There were so many different directions the writers could have taken to end the season on a better note. But no, they had to do it in the way that's insulting to all the fans who love the Willow/Tara relationship. Well, this comes from the bottom of my heart. Joss Whedon, Marti Noxon and the folks at ME can GO STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!!

With that said, I would like to suggest this to all kittens. Even though Tara's not coming back next season, there are a few new directions that Buffy could be taken. For one, they could have a future episode with Tara's family coming back and learning of her death. That would be a good ep, to me at least. Anyways, email me at letsrocket_1998@yahoo.com if you have any comments about that.
WilTaraFan
 


Discussion S6E21&22 Two to Go&Grave&qu

Postby tommo » Wed May 22, 2002 6:28 am

The Xander/Willow moment was [b:e03b31fdc8] touching[/b:e03b31fdc8]? Perhaps we weren't watching the same show then, because all I saw was a desperate man saying anything he could in order to stop Willow wrecking the world. And he failed. It was Giles that stopped Willow, not Xander. All that sack of crap succeeded in doing was laying the guilt trip on her. And let's face it, Willow can do that just fine to herself. As I'm sure she will [b:e03b31fdc8] all[/b:e03b31fdc8] next season.

Too bad I won't be watching.
tommo
 

PreviousNext

Return to Board index

Return to Other Backup

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests


Powered by phpBB The phpBB Group © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007
Style based on a Cosa Nostra Design