Lesbians Live and Love don't listen to ME

[xita]

I am a lesbian. I am damn proud. I have loved and been loved. I hold a job and can handle stress. I manage my money and can deal with pain.

When I was young I looked to the media for images of myself because there was nothing around me. Not one gay person I could turn to and ask, "what's it like?" "Can I find love?" As I grew up and foud myself as an adult, I developed an obsession with lesbians in the media because it had played such an important part of my growing up. I recognized my own homosexuality at 12 because I read 2 books and I could see myself in them. And I knew why I felt so different. I was able to learn about gay life and what I might have to go through through books and movies. I learned about a life of pain and rejection. And I hardned myself, prepared for the worst.

I am so glad that this show was not on the air when I was 13, 14.

This show isn't portraying your life, it's not like this. This show isn't there for you anymore, but I am and so are a ton of people.

[bgfilly]

xita, can i just say you are a truly wonderful person i know i havent talked you much but you have a big heart and it shows . much love and respect to ya

filly

[tommo]

Mutant. Enemy. Those two words pretty much sum up how I feel about Joss & Co. right now.

I'm sorry, but I'm done with this. This isn't the way I wanted it to be; or the way I expected it to be. This is [b:6b90418721] wrong[/b:6b90418721]. This is [b:6b90418721] not[/b:6b90418721] the way it has to be for you; or the way it has to be for anyone who loves and gives freely.

Believe me, I'm feeling a lot of pain over this right now for very personal reasons. But I will not let those people dictate my life to me. I will not let them tell me who to love, and how to love, and when I can love. I will not. I've done too much and seen too much to lie down and take it.

Email me; IM me; whatever it takes and I will convince you that true love can conquer all, despite what these little boys are playing at. This is not how it will end for lesbians. It's unfair and unacceptable. Don't listen to them; listen to me, listen to Xita, listen to anyone who thinks that love is a sacred thing, not something that's disposable. Because it's really not.

They don't know what it's like to be us. They [b:6b90418721] can't[/b:6b90418721] know what it's like to be us. So don't listen to them and their moral majority outrage.

I'm so angry right now I can't express myself very well; apologies for that. This is a sad day for lesbians. It's a sad day to be me. Thanks ME. I really needed that.

[urnofosiris]

I do not think they have any idea what they have done. I do not think they are willing to truly *listen* to the people they are hurting with this. They rather hide behind "it is just for the story" and equal treatment than to actually stop and *really* consider what this story they are telling is doing to people.

They had something precious and unique. Or maybe I should say Joss, as this was his decision. He had it and he threw it away.

No one should sit there and say it is just a show. it is more than that. I grew up surrounded by, all be it wonderful, but 100% straight people. I never knew shit about the gay or trans community. It would have helped me if I had seen a representation of what the human race is actually made up of on TV as I lacked it in my direct surroundings. it would have helped me if I had not had to figure out for myself there are trans and gay people in the world.

WT showed there is such a thing as happy lesbians, and that being gay does not equal misery. For the first time. I know straight people get to watch straight people be miserable on tv, but they also get to watch them live happily ever after about a 23864102376541038475623452 times per movie or tv show. I am taking a wild guess and say the statistics are heavily in their favour.

Was it really too much to ask to have *one* gay relationship not end in disaster so gay/queer/bi/trans people could have something to be happy about on tv as well? Just once.

But whatever ME has done, Willow and Tara I will always love. They inspired this board, and this board is what has opened my eyes to a great many things. In the past I was not sure who to thank first for the good they have given me. Joss, Aly, Amber, Xita. Well now I know, I thank Amber and Aly for Willow and Tara and Xita for this board.

*edited out a grammatical horror, only 2 months too late and I probably left a few, but at least I didn't not rush my edit. [img:20d2d3d2b5]http://www.westwoodi.net/~smilies/cwm/cwm/rcain.gif[/img:20d2d3d2b5]

[maudmac]

Yeppers, [b:326629d52b] xita[/b:326629d52b]. It makes me sad that I used to encourage my gay friends to watch the show. Hell, I used to encourage everyone I knew to watch the show. But in the last couple months, when people hear me talking about the show and they ask about it, I tell them, "Oh, God, don't watch! There's no point anymore. I'm only hanging on to the end of this season for closure because I've been a fan for so long."

I grew up in a very progressive home. My mother had strong opinions about equality that naturally influenced me. Her best friend (and my godmother) was a lesbian, so I was especially blessed to be able to spend a great deal of time with her. She rode me around town on her motorcycle when my mom wasn't around. This balanced the total lack of positive media portrayals of lesbians at that time (early 80's or so). (What do I mean "at that time"? Hell, even now it's not much better.)

I knew I liked girls (even though I didn't know words like "lesbian" and "homosexual") since I was very young. I wasn't terribly harmed by having no good role models in the media because I had one in real life and my mother always encouraged me to be whatever I was. I honestly never even looked around for lesbian role models because I was so naturally comfortable with my sexuality. (Except for that weird boyfriend thing I did in high school. I can't decide if that was just a fluke or if I had internalized some homophobia thing I picked up from the outside world. Whatever.)

Having said all that, though, I have always been keenly aware of the fact that most of us don't come from such supportive backgrounds. I know so many people with horrific stories to tell.

None of this means seeing lesbians portrayed fairly in the media is less important to me. I identify with them. I seek myself in them. It's important to me. It's both personal and political. Because it's who I am and what I am.

There is a girl out there RIGHT NOW who can't sleep tonight because she's starting to think it's just not worth it. Her pillow is wet and she has a headache. She loved Willow and Tara more than anything else in her world because they were everything she risked daring to hope she could have someday. They were her hope that she could be happy.

That hope is gone and what's that girl going to do without it?

[missspangles]

A long time ago (well, about seven years ago) a pioneering English tv soapie introduced a young gay character and I think the Guardian newspaper said "far more rests upon this than meets the eye." Of course, the producers stuffed up grandly and the young lesbian died tragically. But what the paper said was so true, do the people who make these shows not realise the impact their shows have on young people questioning their sexuality? People kill themselves over these issues. I hope that young people and all lesbians just completely disregard Buffy, far more rested upon Willow and Tara than met the eye and the producers couldn't be trusted with the storyline. I feel sick when I think about what they've done and am only glad that I have found this board and wonderful community for support becuase support sure as hell isn't going to come from tv producers, such &##&#&#(! that they are!

[ruby]

Thanks for this thread, Xita.

When ME decided to pursue this storyline with W/T, they took on a sacred duty. I really believe that. They can spew all they want about serving a story arc over the political responsibility to present a "positive" image of gays and lesbians," but the truth is, this is a show for youth and there are real lives on the line. The gratuitously vicious and cruel way they chose to end this relationship lacks entertainment value and is truly damaging to young queers.

Tara struck a particular chord for me because I grew up in a fundamentalist religion in a very conservative part of the country. No one told me I was a demon for being gay, but it was damn close. Education was my ticket out. I went to college and grad school and never looked back. Like Tara, I found friends to sustain me and was able to grow from a frightened outcast into a more confident, independent woman. Over time, I've managed to build a good relationship with my family, but I will never, EVER understand why those institutions would want to make a young woman feel so much fear, shame, loneliness, and self-hatred. So many times I was hanging onto life by the thinnest margin; so many times I looked to the media for any sign that I wasn't crazy--that I existed--because there was no evidence in my own life.

So I am furious with BtVS right now, not only because they took a feminist, cliche-busting show and plunged it into the most misogynist of cliches, but because they let us down in a much bigger way. I ache for every teenage lesbian who watched the show and believed she was growing up in a world where she could be proud. Because ME took that belief and used it to smack her in the face.

Willow and Tara were once so well-written and human that it was a pleasure to give them the most personal kind of emotional investment. That's why this hurts so much; the characters are fictional, but the love they represented is real. For everyone who's reading the board with a broken heart (and who isn't?), please know you are surrounded by living, breathing lesbians who want something better. Please, please remember the good and send a big Fuck You to the bad. Because, like Xita said, we are here, we exist, we are proof that there is life and love and strength and freedom from the tragic, stupid script from which ME has so willingly taken a page.

[wizpup]

Good one Xita - in all the rage and bitterness it would have been easy to miss this point, and that would have been a terrible oversight.

Why am I so angry that ME fucked this up so badly? Lots of reasons, and a great many of them can be found in the all new Lesbian Cliche FAQ (Which is fantastic - if you haven't read it yet, go and do so immediately).

But there's one reason that is most relevant to this thread and that's the fact that IT ISN'T TRUE!!!!

Lesbians [b:3bf85a26bb] can[/b:3bf85a26bb] be happy, they [b:3bf85a26bb] can[/b:3bf85a26bb] fall in love, they [b:3bf85a26bb] can[/b:3bf85a26bb] be accepted by their friends, and [b:3bf85a26bb] can[/b:3bf85a26bb] even have sex without turning evil or dying horribly. Don't let ME tell you any different.

If you have any doubts about that, or you feel the need to chat e-mail me or one of the other posters in this thread. We are all here for each other.

jo x

[themagicpixie]

I'd just like to say I agree with everything on this thread. ME don't really know what they are doing. Young lesbian, gay and bisexual people often find their only images of gay lifestyles on television, and sadly these are usually negative ones. Now we can add Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the list. I know it isn't a show primarily about its gay characters, and the story comes first, but please, please, please, Mutant Enemy, why are you doing this? People kill themselves because they are worried about their sexuality. It's not an issue you can play with to earn ratings, these are not characters you can breathe life into and then shoot in the back, because so much more rests upon them than their straight creations. Is that right? Of course not. Young people shouldn't have to find role models that show them it's OK to be gay - they should know already. But most don't. Most suffer.

You could have said: don't invest in these girls. But you made us believe.

To anyone reading this who is young and gay and unhappy: read the other posts on this board, know that you are not alone and you don't have to be miserable. I know because I have been through it (not so long ago). Whilst growing up debating my sexuality, I watched gay characters suffer and die on TV. It didn't make me feel so good. But it isn't the way things really are; LGB people really are just like everyone else and range across the spectrum of human experience and personality... some are happy bunnies, some not; some are nice people, some not; some of them you will fall in love with, some you'll hate at first sight, some will become some of your best friends! In short - hey, we are just like straight people, and there is no reason to be unhappy or afraid. It might not feel like that now. You might feel alone and confused and desperate, and maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer featured a happy gay relationship you idolised - well, do not be downhearted because as the other posts show - and as a lot of people on this board will tell you - this storyline is just crap, and misery is not around every corner. You can be happy. You will be happy. Hang in there, talk to the supportive people on this board, and ignore a TV show that causes you pain. I know it's easy to say, but really, it isn't worth it. The show isn't worth it, ME isn't worth it. Check out the fanfic on the pens board. We own Willow & Tara now!

[dreadpirateemily]

WARNING!!!! THIS IS REALLY LONG. But I really had to get it out: Thanks for humoring me.

I grew up in a place so small and isolated that I, too, looked to the media for any reflection of strong women.

I lived without a loving adult or a role model of any kind.

At first, I was looking for anyone who was strong: Superman, Wonder Woman. These were my first impressions of people who could really take care of themselves.

Then I wanted to see more "me." I read "A Wrinkle in Time," and "Ramona Quimby." Strong females indeed! But still.... I watched "The Bionic Woman" obsessively. Here was a living, breathing, beautiful woman who kicked ass! (comparatively - remember, it was 1976)

I loved her so much. I would replay in my head how she talked, walked, jumped, ran, smiled. I didn't know it, but I was in love!

Because I was so isolated, I didn't understand that there was such a thing as women who loved each other.

I watched Laverne and Shirley. I wanted them to stay home more and stop worrying about boys. They had each other! What more could they want?

I went right through high school, and 2 very close female friendships, being called a "dyke" but not understanding. I couldn't understand that there was something other than the stereotypical butched-out, shit-kicking dyke. I looked in the mirror and that wasnt me.

Then I met someone. First love. I was overwhelmed by my desire to be near her. We were in a relationship for 6 years, but we were both straight. We didnt know any lesbians and we didnt see any lesbians on television or in the movies. How were we to know that our relationship was okay? That it was typical and just like countless others? And that it was nothing to be ashamed of?

I watched Cagney and Lacey and went to see Fried Green Tomatoes and Beaches. I was getting closer. But in C&L, lesbianism was never addressed they were just strong women - and the movies? Well, as long as one of them dies, its okay to have a romantic friendship.

My lover and I split. She joined a church and got married. She was straight after all. I got into a relationship with an out lesbian. We saw Thelma and Louise 7 times. The best yet! Oh yeah, except that they both died.

I came out. I was in and out of relationships, as one is prone to be in their twenties. I worked in gay-friendly places and met many folks a lot like me. I identified with other women. I commiserated and laughed and fell in love. It was an accelerated adolescence/early adulthood.

I watched Star Trek:TNG and fell in love with Dr. Crusher. In the 24th century, she could almost bring herself to love a woman, but not quite. So 300 years in the future, there are no gays in space. I wondered if there were entire gay planets that they were just avoiding?

I watched the X-Files. Scully. Mmmmm. Pretty, smart, intense. She didnt cow-tow to smarty pants Mulder either. And also UFOs. Cool.

For date night, I choose Heavenly Creatures. Hot hot hot, wait, they kill her mother. The price of lesbian love at a young age, one supposes. I wonder if my date is thinking about hitting my mother in the head with a brick. I decide not to ask.

I get into another bad relationship the most destructive to date! Then I watched Xena. Whoa. She kicked ass. Muchly. And was clearly in love with her little sidekick. Damn. Now this is what I was looking for. Strong, flawed, beautiful. And (drumroll here) she didnt apologize. She wasnt punished. She wasnt corrected. She did a lot wrong, and was incredibly destructive. But she also never waivered in her love for Gabrielle and never questioned its validity.

Although it was still subtextual, it was there for us to see. We threw parties so that we could tape the show and then play back the moments in slow motion. You know what I mean: the look, the brush of a hand, the peck on a cheek, the tear. Anything that illustrated the intensity between these women was celebrated.

Scully started making goo-goo eyes at Mulder. Damn.

I got out of destructive relationships and committed to a life-partner. She is everything I ever wanted or needed. We are making a life together, and after 5 years, have barely scratched the surface of what we might be together.

My partner and I see Go Fish and Claire of the Moon. I tell myself, Watch for the sex, not the story. Watch for the sex, not the story. It works. We went again, surrounded in the theater with deprived lesbians - virtual thickets of women looking for anything that resembles their lives being reflected back to them off of the magic silver screen. We watch for the sex.

We start watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Witty, cool, Buffy kicks major ass with a kick and a quip. We love it. Its not us, but we love it. Oh yeah, and Willow is so cute. We were kind of like her way back when.

We rent houses and get jobs and get better jobs and take vacations and talk about having babies. We hang out with our friends, start exercising and go to therapy. We write and draw and go to graduate school.

We go see High Art. Good! Oh wait, she dies. We rent the Northern Exposure episode with Cicely and Roslyn. Good! Oh wait, she dies. We rent Bound. Wow. Cool! And while we are not ourselves grifters and con-people, we appreciate that these particular grifters and con-people are indeed lesbians.

Xena has turned into a parody of itself. I still watch, but just for the sex. More accurately, for the insinuations of the sex that is then fleshed out in a plethora of fine fan fiction.

We go see Mulholland Drive. Um. And also huh?

Oh my god, who is that on Buffy? Shes soooo cute. Are they gonna make Willow a lesbian?! The blowing out of a candle makes it official. Willow and Tara are together. Off camera, out of range, mostly implied, but together. No subtext. And weekly.

I go to a lesbian bar to watch the series finale of Xena. Hundreds of lesbians whove gathered in her name gather once more to pay homage to Xena, Warrior Princess. With bated breath, they hold each other in the dark, waiting, waiting. Waiting for the kiss, for the declaration, for the summation of their energetic, financial and undying devotion to this mythology of grand and true love. Xena dies.

After dying previously 10 times over, the Xena mythology is capped off with a sacrifice for the greater good. Gabrielle is sailing the seven seas talking to Xenas spirit and taking care of herself.

Everyone goes home.

We move to a better neighborhood, buy a better car, get promotions and rescue a kitten. We become aunts and still discuss having babies. We think about moving to a city where we might feel less threatened should we actually start this family we talk about.

We rejoice weekly in the most honest, open and sweet lesbian relationship weve ever seen in the media: Willow and Tara. We download pictures and read reviews and visit the Kitten Board daily. Willow and Tara love each other fiercely and smartly. The way we love each other. And they dont apologize. I love Buffy for bringing a life-long dream to a reality a reflection of me. I see me in them. I see my friends. I see my lover. We are in the world and its okay and we belong. We are a part of the family.

They move to a different network and now what?! Theyre kissing? In front of us? For all the world to see? It really cant get any better. Time goes by. We love them. They love each other. They break up. Its okay, theyll get back together. No one on Buffy is happy for long. Thats built in, so its okay. They are just like everyone else, so they have to go through the wringer.

I teach myself to web design, how to ftp and network, and how to maximize time on video downloads. My teachers? People on Buffy boards. I get a promotion at work. Thanks Buffy!

I go to a software conference and take my laptop so that I can download Buffy. Ive heard there was a kiss and I dont want to miss it. I spend 2.5 hours downloading a 12 second kiss. It was worth every minute.

They get back together. Then they kiss. And kiss and kiss and kiss. Um, ahhh, ahem. Oh, hell yeah. Next week, sounds of sex, post-sex glow, more kisses, more post and pre-sex glow and even more kisses.

Oh yeah, then Tara dies. Shot in the chest.

What? Willow wants revenge.

What?

We talk to our friends, and we laugh at how sad we are. We watch Buffy now, telling ourselves that we will hold out hope that they are not doing what we know they are doing.

Well! We tell ourselves, we just have to create our own reflections. Its up to us, to tell the story we want to hear and to make the story we want to see. We are spurred on in our creative and professional pursuits, with a new dedication to undo what weve seen done.

I want my money back. I want a refund, a full and unconditional promise of compensatory damages for havoc wreaked. I dont want to have invested what I have in this story. I dont want to believe what they are telling me. I dont want to hear the moral of this story. I dont want this, in the end, to be the summation. But it is. Its back to the beginning:

Bad lesbians. Bad girls.

[dizzysyd(d)]

very well-put.

and funny that you mentioned the bionic woman -- my parents named me after her. lol i changed my name for my job, but Jaime is still there.

[relativegirl]

I've come to realize that, in the abstract, I don't really have a problem with this season's W/T storyline, so long as it happened to someone else. Xander and Anya for instance. I think I would've been mildly interested in it.

In the abstract, I don't have a problem with evil lesbians or dead lesbians. I only have a problem when they're the ONLY lesbians. Last year I thought it would have been interesting for Glory to be a lesbian. I've always thought it would be excellent to see an all-gay BtVS with an all-gay Scoobie Gang lead by their noble drag queen, Giles. Everyone's a lesbian -- good ones, bad ones, evil ones, noble ones, inept ones, heroic ones, shy ones, brash ones. And we would judge them by the content of their character and their capacity to love rather than whom they love.

Well maybe some day, but that day is not today.

In the abstract, I don't have a problem with exploring how a good, sweet, loving person can be so abused and battered by this world and its obscenities that she becomes evil and hateful. It could be a fascinating exploration, an amazing journey. I don't think I would even mind if she were a lesbian. Because that's what happens all too often to us. We start out young and tender, just wanting to love and be loved. But then our culture's pettiness and ugliness seeps into our hearts and our minds, introducing doubt and self-loathing. And as we grow older the world batters us, repeatedly. Another year, another struggle, another battle. And if our world doesn't exactly beat us down, it does shape us and harden us. Life leaves its mark. We may survive, but our innocence does not.

I appreciate that Joss didn't intend to write a "message show" and didn't intend for Willow and then Tara to be anything more than interesting complex characters. But whether he intended to or not, Willow and Tara and their love story transcended the show, transcended HIS story and transcended the medium.

Willow and Tara became icons and their love story became dogma.

Whether Joss likes it or not, it happened. And how he feels about it really isn't the point. It happened. They belong to us now. If Joss fancies himself the iconoclast who will destroy Willow and Tara, he's free to think that. He can try, but he will fail. If you try to destroy my icons and defile my dogma, I will not stay silent. You're going to hear about and so will anyone else within earshot.

At my lowest points, I've become tired and bitter. Not just at what Joss has done, but at myself. I have so much real life living to be doing and all of this is taking so much real time and sucking me dry of real emotions I should be lavishing on those nearest and dear. Why can't it just be a silly tv show for me with a coupla cute chicks that die and become evil b/c "that's just the way this show is", because "that's what the story demands." Why can't I be like the other people on all those other boards?

But I'm not.

At my lowest, I've concluded it's not worth it. It's not worth caring. At times I've even regretted that Willow and Tara were created at all. I've regretted that Amber Benson auditioned well and won the role. I've regretted that Amber and Aly have amazing chemistry. I've regretted that Aly and Amber are so accomplished at their craft that they make Willow and Tara real to me.

It sickens me that I've thought these things. It should sicken me. I should never ever EVER want to turn my face away from what is wonderful and beautiful and true.

So I won't. I won't let myself, I just won't. Willow and Tara belong to me. I own them. I will nurture and care for them. They're alive and well and fully explored in my mind and they will always be safe there, beyond the grasp of Joss. Whatever it is in Willow and Tara that drew me to them will survive and whatever it is about them that feeds me, I will continue to be fed. I will keep Willow and Tara inviolate.

And I will read the Different Colored Pens and if you wonderful kittens that create them chose to stop writing, then I will re-read them over and over and over and your words will become my new dogma and will nourish my soul.

In a word, it's all about reappropriation -- the process by which an oppressed group reclaims, reshapes and redeems a previously negative word or idea, turns it around and invests it with new meanings of power and liberation.

It's time to reappropriate. On a social scale, a policital scale, an economic scale, a public scale and on a very personal, very private scale. Reappropriate. Daily.

[tyche]

I am straight (and therefore in a minority on this board, though I have never felt unwelcome here), and this relationship has moved me like no other TV relationship has, EVER. Every day, I come to this board, and I am constantly impressed and moved by the courage and humour with which all the LGBT members put up with all the crap that the nasty, bigoted elements of society (and now ME) throw at you. You are an amazing bunch of people, and I truly appreciate having known all of you.
Just thought that needed saying.

[tommo]

Tyche, you've always been really gay-friendly. For the longest time, I thought you were...you know, "one of us".

Thank you for sticking with us. You're such a valued member of the community and it's people like you that give me hope and make me feel like I'm not a bad person because the human being I love is the same sex as me.

[Grace]

For a long time, I've known that I am different. I am 25, and have never had a serious relationship. I always dated men, but the older I got, the more I recognized my attraction to women. I would get so uncomfortable being close to the men I dated. I knew something was different, but I couldn't identify what it was.

I have watched Buffy since the beginning. I loved the quick dialogue and metaphorical plots. mostly, I loved the characters and the relationships. Specifically, I loved Willow. I thought she was beautiful and smart and funny. I was drawn to this character. When she met Tara, I knew that this was going to be something special. I think we all knew, even if Joss and Co didn't at first. I loved watching them together. Realizing that Willow was a lesbian, and that she was going through this discovery in front of my eyes, made her character even more compelling to me.

This past year, my life has gone through drastic changes. I have done a lot of soul-searching, and I have a new understanding of who I am and what I want from life. But I still couldn't put my finger on what I was missing until I came here to the kitten board. I found this place only two months ago, but it was like coming home. I felt so comfortable here, so accepted, so safe. I felt like I wasn't alone. I discussed my new confusing feelings with several people here, and it felt so good to finally articulate what I was feeling, what my questions were. The realization dawned on me like a light bulb exploding over my head. Something I had always wondered at the back of my mind came to the forefront. Am I a lesbian? It seemed strange to finally fully consider this. I realized that the reason I watched the scenes of Willow and Tara over and over again (the comfortable embrace in "Real Me," the cuddling at the beginning of "Family," the kiss in "The Body.") was because I craved seeing these two beautiful, strong, amazing women in love. Their love felt so real to me, so safe. I wanted to feel that. It was what I had been missing. I suddenly looked back at every relationship I've had with new eyes.

Someone here told me that I don't have to decide on labels, just be who I am. That is what I am doing. I don't know if I am gay, or bi-sexual, or possibly even straight. Right now, I'm just confused. But I know that specific labels don't really matter. We should all be able to love whomever we love, regardless of gender. What could be more wonderful than love? What could possibly be wrong with loving another person? I finally feel safe to love another person. I know that because of Willow and Tara, because of the kitten community, I finally feel safe enough to examine who I am. I like myself better. I feel more beautiful. I feel more like me. I feel more comfortable in my own skin. I'm not saying that everyone needs a television show to help them determine their sexuality, but for me, finally seeing this happy, loving, intelligent, productive, warm, AMAZING couple was what allowed me to realize that it was possible to be happy. No matter what happens, I will always have them as an example. Alyson, Amber, and yes, Joss, have touched me so profoundly, it has truly changed my life. And all of the kittens, especially the wonderful people responsible for this board, have also impacted me, by creating a place where I can truly be myself, maybe for the first time. No one outside of my computer knows what I am struggling with, but at least here I can be loved and accepted for who I am. My journey to know myself better and to find someone to love will continue after this season of Buffy. I hope other young women can see this example and feel free to love whomever they want. I hope this example is the first of many on television. I hope that homosexuality will one day be represented on television freely as the beautiful thing that it is. It isn't abnormal, it isn't wrong. I just keep thinking about the scene from "Family" where Tara explains to her father that the magic doesn't feel evil. I just hope that this is only the beginning, so that every young person who is questioning their sexuality can see that it is okay, and that love, in any form, is a beautiful gift.

[Gatito Grande]

[quote:40926834aa][b:40926834aa][i:40926834aa]Quote:[/i:40926834aa][/b:40926834aa]

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In the abstract, I don't have a problem with evil lesbians or dead lesbians. I only have a problem when they're the ONLY lesbians. Last year I thought it would have been interesting for Glory to be a lesbian. I've always thought it would be excellent to see an all-gay BtVS with an all-gay Scoobie Gang lead by their noble drag queen, Giles. Everyone's a lesbian -- good ones, bad ones, evil ones, noble ones, inept ones, heroic ones, shy ones, brash ones. And we would judge them by the content of their character and their capacity to love rather than whom they love.

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F*cking brilliant!

It just amazes me that an *sshole like Deknight expects us to not take this personally. ME's killed off about 25% of all dykes in primetime and 100% of healthy dyke couples.* They've said piss-off to a core part of their audience who've stuck w/ this little cult show for 6 years.

[i:40926834aa] ME: Let them eat cake.[/i:40926834aa]

And they've sent a hell of a depressing message about no good deed-doer going unpunished. It's one thing to do that in a comedy (a favorite, continuing theme of the little dramedies on Prairie Home Companion that I love so much). It's another to do it in a true story---especially when the people around the victim/martyr find deep meaning in their suffering and loss. But it's a totally inappropriate message in a fantasy- and youth-based show like "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Even if there is some Grand Redemptive Plan in all this (and I continue to hope that there is---or at least a Half-Assed Redemptive Plan), this deepening nightmare has been dragged out too long, too bleakly and too painfully. Not to mention illogically.

I disliked the finale to "Xena Warrior Princess" (see post above). But this message in S6 BTVS---death to love, death to goodness---is a million times worse.

To cite yet another cult TV show, remember that episode of Star Trek TNG where Worf finds the prison camp of Klingons and their children? Worf teaches the young Klingons about their peoples ways and shows them that their "minimum-security" prison is [u:40926834aa]still[/u:40926834aa] a [b:40926834aa] prison[/b:40926834aa]. Then Worf is condemned to death, and appears to accept the sentence. The young woman (half-Klingon, half-Romulan) smitten w/ Worf, yells at him "Why did you ever come here? We were so happy---we didn't know what we were missing!"

I feel this way now. Before Willow&Tara, many of us didn't know what we were missing---seeing Our Story broadcast to the world. Now we have seen it, and it's been glorious: especially the past hour and 50 minutes of it (Entropy and Seeing Red). To take this away, now, just feels crueler than if we'd never had them at all.

Actually, I believe Dawn had it right in "After Life": "You just can't mess w/ people's lives like that!"

Why, Joss, why? "Buffy vs. Willow" could never be worth this betrayal of everything this show has stood for.

GG [i:40926834aa] rambling despairingly[/i:40926834aa] Out


*Comparing this to the ER (which I don't watch) relationship which sounds fairly unhealthy---according to AfterEllen.com

[Aduka]

thanks Xita Im done with Buffy but not the kitten board

This place has been a god send for me, an outlet to the glbt community that I noramlly dont have access to;coming here has enriched my life and given me new view points. Along with some great friends that I hope to keep for life.

This board and the varied people that come here represnt the real face of glbt(and the friends/families that support us) life, not some half baked tv show that says it dosent pull cliche stunts yet sells out to them in the end.

My one wish is for this board to continue, as a postive spot for anyone thats questioning, needs a place to talk or an avenue of help; in the postive and welcoming spirit of Willow/Tara and what they stood for. Before ME layed an egg this season.

Long live the kitten
-Sarah

[friskylez]

Thought i had something really profound to say here, but i guess i dont
Just that im glad this dyke found a place that makes me laugh and smile..Thank you Xita, mods and kittens for making this a wonderful haven to lurk and be a part of

[dreadpirateemily]

Just think, if this was even five years ago, most of us would be sitting in our living rooms, maybe with a few friends, wondering if we were the only ones who felt this way.

At least now we have a community with whom to share the grief and frustration.

And I bet very few of us have died after having sex with our girlfriends.

[BBOvenGuy]

I'm not gay. Sometimes I feel like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, but that's not what I am. I'm a straight man. I do my best to live with that disability. And I can't pretend to know what it's like to be a gay person and be going through what Mutant Enemy has done to Willow and Tara. I can only go by the many fine words that have been written and posted here.

What I am is a writer, and one with a big belief in social responsibility at that. This whole sorry affair has only reinforced my belief that writers have a duty to promote that which is good and right and just in their works. Even if you're just telling a silly fantasy story, even if you have a long track record of success, you can never slack off. Audiences put their trust in the writers' hands, and that trust must always be valued and respected.

Does this mean I'll never write a dead and/or evil gay character? I don't know the future, so I can't say that with absolute certainty. What I can say, though, is that I will always do my best to be fair and to be sensitive to the audience that chooses to trust me. I will never do something out of a presumption that I know what the audience "needs."

And I will avoid cliches like the plague...

[jsr]

The truth is W/T ARE different. From the very beginning, it was obvious that this was no flash in the pan, ratings-grabbing, girl-on-girl distraction. No experimental, one-hit "but now I'm straight" wonder. W/T were a groundbreaking relationship. Willow choosing Tara over Oz was revolutionary -- it was bold, and it was empowering. How often does this happen in real life? That a woman shakes off her heterosexual priveledge to pursue love's road less traveled? Just recently a woman told me, "I like girls so much better than boys -- but don't tell my boyfriend that." This is the standard that our heterosexist, homophobic society has created -- through shame-filled rhetoric, religious dogma, and unrealistic, constructed social roles. Roles that have unfortunately filtered down to the gay community as well.

W/T was iconoclastic. It broke the barriers -- it said Fuck You to the way things are and Hello to the way things could be. And that my friends is what REAL art does -- it changes society. It exposes the fallacies and presents alternatives. It enlightens. Willow and Tara enlightened so many -- it changed the way many people viewed gay relationships, it allowed people to free their own repressed feelings. It presented an adorable, loving couple, without the stereotypical "butch-femme" "hot girl-on-girl" and "drama-dyke" scenarios. There was hardship, but through it, their love conquered all. Pretty amazing stuff.

Joss Whedon had a gold mine and he traded it in for a pile of shit. Whereas the beginning of W/T represented the best that art can achieve, thier end signifies manipulation at its worst -- "schlock writing" as my old CW professor called it. It is contrived and banal -- the same old rehashed ending. Couple madly in love until one is violently killed. Where have we seen this before? Oh yeah, on every soap opera ever written. It is trite, it is tasteless, and when you throw lesbians into the mix, its just downright offensive. The good-old cliche rearing its ugly head again. How Whedon can justify Tara's death and Willow's unrealistic downfall (I can see her offing Warren -- but the whole world? Give me a fucking break!) as a good creative decision is completely beyond me. It is probably the most uncreative choice he could have possibly made. And its sad -- because W/T were something special -- they WERE DIFFERENT.

There's so much crap on TV in general. Even moreso when it comes to Lesbians since there's a lot less of them to go around. The saddest truth of all is that probably the worst fictional lesbian characters appear on "gay themed" shows like Queer as Folk (sorry this is OT, but Melanie and Lindsey suck my big fat ass). I will miss Willow and Tara tremendously. Sometimes it feels like there aren't a lot of outlets for an old-fashioned romantic dyke like me. W/T was my guilty pleasure, and I'm pretty sad to see them go.

Jill

[Rally]

I have to chime in the Mel and Linds thing, cause they piss me off to no end. They are the fucking comic relief machine of QAF. They are there for little more than sight gags and / or to get dumped on by the "misunderstanding heterosexuals".

[VampNo12]

I don't usually post things like this, but what has happened on the show has motivated me. I have been a fan of Buffy since season 3, but it wasn't until Tara that I became obsessed with this show.

I am 30 year old woman, who has been questioning my sexuality for quite some time. I know deep down am I probably gay, however I have never been totally comfortable with this fact to admit it to myself. As the W&T's relationship progressed I started to process my feelings, and realize what I felt was normal and I felt validated by seeing W&T portrayed in such a wonderful, loving light. Most of my friends don't know I been questioning my sexuality (ie most thought evil Willow was a great idea), and when the lesbian cliche was brought right to my tv screen I was totally distraught. This is not something to see when an adult questions her sexuality, and I hate to think what people in their youth who are coming to grips with their sexuality feels when they see something that was so positive (ie it gave you hope), and then cruelly takes that hope away from them.

Now I look at this show and I feel betrayed and sad. I so want to feel comfortable with being gay, and I really was starting to do this, but now I don't know what to feel like. However, I must say one of the reasons I love this board so much aside from finding people who love W&T as much as I do is, that I realize I am not alone, and that is something I am grateful for finding.

[MissPsychoPepSquad]

VampNo12 - thanks for posting - and Xita - thanks for starting this thread! - it's precisely this reason that Willow/Tara were so important.

Forgive me in advance if this comes off a bit preachy...I get upset.

What ME has done in killing Tara and making Willow the evil murdering bitch-lesbian is horrific for so many reasons: it destroys good characters, is bad storytelling, allows for gruesome and gratuitous torture/violence scenes, and worst of all: it discourages women from feeling comfortable in questioning their sexuality.

It ISN'T ok to be a lesbian in this culture. Let's face it - according to a bunch of people, women become lesbians because they hate men, because they're terrified of men, because they're terrified of living or becoming mothers, because they can't stand being "told" what to do, because, because, because...never that it's natural or individual. Insanity is a great reason for lesbianism too.

And it isn't just recent culture. Hell, the latin word that the word Hysterical is derived from means womb.

That's right. A woman's sexuality is somehow tied to making her insane. Hence, a whole bunch of forced hysterectomies and other disgusting things have happened to women for straying away from the norm. And it's precisely this image of pleasure/punish that the cinema and others embrace - we give them a moment of beauty and love and we have to shoot Tara, because god forbid we suggest that this kind of love is lasting and good. There has to be a punishment.

I wish I had Laura Mulvey's essays on "the gaze." these are the same old stereotypes: men are allowed to look; women aren't. By making Willow a murderer and a psycho torturer - they are saying - see what being a lesbian does to you? I'm disgusted by it - it's message and its crude, uneducated, middle-ages sentiment.

Being with someone you love, whether it's the same sex or not, is a beautiful and rewarding thing. Nobody should be treated like Willow and Tara's characters were treated by ME's writers. And this is what they are promoting. And it's the women and men who feel a little (a lot) uncertain about their choices in this judgemental world that will be defeated by it.

[tommo]

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[b:4abc9a125c] And I bet very few of us have died after having sex with our girlfriends.[/b:4abc9a125c]

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Oh well...I dunno. Heh. I've certainly been as close to heaven as I want to be right now though.

[girlwiththebraids]

just jumping on this thread because it's a powerful one, and i understand...a lot.

i identify as bisexual, but i lean pretty strongly toward the lesbian side...and willow and tara, they reminded me a lot of reality for a long time. i met a girl, at college, who i had a lot in common with and loved to talk to...we talked about everything, we started to hang out more and more, she started to stay over in my room, platonically, until the one night when we figured out what we really felt and the happiness in my world exploded into a wonderful place...and i had watched will and tara's relationship develop in that same kind of way, from friendship, and when they got through difficulties together, it made me feel stronger about my relationship...because the media was showing me that what i had was like someone else, and more, it was showing me that it was special, because will and tara were so special...what is it showing me now? my girl is my best friend, and the person i love more than anyone or anything in the world...and tv has hit me in the face again with the idea that happiness doesn't last for people like me...thanks a lot, ME

thank you to everyone here for making this a place where i don't have to be alone in my feelings about willow and tara, and for giving me the voices of other people to show me that who i am is okay...that who we all are is okay...

braids

[buffelina]

Willow and Tara's relationship prior to the ME bullshit helped me realize the beauty of finding true love, that whether my soulmate is a man or woman, love and happiness with a lifelong partner is possible.
This season has been like a slap in the face.
I must say though, that my visits to the Kitty Board have always been uplifting and empowering. I have always felt at home here.

[Glitch]

I realize that none of you know me, and my opinion might not count for much, but there are a few things I would like to say.

Before I started watching BTVS, I was never comfortable with the idea of same-sex relationships. The entire idea was foreign to me. I didnt understand that a gay relationship could be healthy, nurturing, and real.

The introduction of the Willow/Tara story line showed me just how naive I truly was. My growing interest the W/T relationship eventually brought me to this board, and the wonderful kittens that reside here. Months of reading your FAQs / FICS / and general banter helped show me how wrong I was to ever judge something I was so ignorant of.

I had a friend that I grew up with come out to me our senior year in high school. Like a fool, I turned my back on our friendship, and betrayed his trust because I refused to understand. I spent the rest of the school year refusing to talk to, or even look my friend in the eye.

A little over a year ago I finally found the courage to call my friend on the phone. It was the hardest thing I ever did. All I know is that I let him go through something life changing.. alone, and I will never forgive myself. We still are not 100% ok, and I dont know if we ever will be. What I do know, is that the kitten board gave me the knowledge that the phone called needed to be made, and then helped me find the strength to make it. For that I will always have a special place in my heart for all you kittens everywhere. Thank You.

Please, whatever you do, do not let this piece of crap story line invalidate who you are. Love knows no bounds; it cares not about sex, race, or creed. Take it from someone who learned the hard way.

[xita]

Glitch that's wonderful, it's what w/t did for so many. It's why it is so harmful, what they did. But we'll be here and I am glad you learned something. It is silly to say that TV doesn't have an impact, it does. ME should not turn their back on that.

[wiltar]

Wow... reading all of this, I am touched.. I don't think I have anything else to contribute, but Xita, I do want to thank you VERY VERY much for creating this topic. You're making sooo much people feeling better because of this, I know that much for sure.

Patricia